1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Knitting Equals Pleasure, Despite ME/CFS
Jody Smith loves knitting. Again. She thought her days of knitting and purling were long over but ... she's back ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Sub-aerobic Prone Exercise?

Discussion in 'Lifestyle Management' started by Valentijn, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,500
    Likes:
    9,620
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    I read through an old thread on exercise and aerobic threshold, since I'm currently stuck lying down to OI and don't want to get all weak and such. And maybe so I can tell any doctors to bugger off if they get on my case for laying down all the time :D

    So I read the papers from Pacific Fatigue Lab. Basically the idea is to do very short bits (30 seconds) of non-aerobic (under 55% maximum heart rate) exercise to keep muscles functional, and maybe improve functionality as well.

    The first thing that I noticed (and experienced) was confusion over what anaerobic exercise is, as discussed in those documents. The problem is that the heart rate range for typical anaerobic exercise is above that of aerobic exercise, so it's not really possible to get your heart rate into that anaerobic range without first going into the aerobic range.

    But the advice is very clear about staying under 55% of max heart rate, so obviously they aren't talking about the anaerobic exercise stage that is at 80-90% of maximum heart rate. My impression is that they use "anaerobic" when they mean "sub-aerobic". So even though sprinting is an anaerobic activity, it requires raising the heart rate too high, so it's not what's being recommended for us.

    If lacking actual testing to show the limit you need to stay under, the general calculation for the limit is (220 ? age) x .55. So at the ripe old age of 33, I shouldn't be going over 103 beats per minute (220-33 = 187 max heart rate, and 187 x .55 = 103). This is a problem because just standing up currently sends my heart rate to something between 100 and 110. So it would seem that I shouldn't be standing up any more than is absolutely necessary. I need an activity that is somewhere between doing nothing (laying around) and doing too much (standing up) that benefits my muscles.

    I'm at 70-80 when laying down, and 85-95 when sitting up for a bit, so instead of being completely inactive, I can probably do some sub-aerobic activities while horizontal. But the difficulty is in finding activities that can be done in that position - even Pacific Fatigue Lab isn't very helpful on this point. The "stage 1" activities include step-ups, wall push-ups, modified chair dips, and toe raises. Aside from stretching and breathing exercises, which are listed for between real exercises, these all involve standing.

    So what are some sub-aerobic activities we can do for 30 seconds or less while lying down? I think my arms are doing okay due to my excessive typing, but I worry about my legs and abdomen.
     
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,310
    Likes:
    4,661
    australia (brisbane)
    I dont know how this would go or how u would go traveling, maybe a short distance, but what about swimming eg across a pool or a distance you can swim less then 30 seconds then a rest period until breath back and pulse lowers close to normal and then another short swim. This is then a supine activity and body weight supported by the water and it effects most muscle groups. Hope it doesnt sound like too much, just a thought, even something like this once a week and then other activities on other days.

    cheers!!!
     
  3. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,500
    Likes:
    9,620
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    Getting to a pool would be too difficult currently (and involve additional being upright), but I could try fake-swimming on my bed. Like doing the bicycle exercise! :D That might be a good one, come to think of it, since not only is my head not higher than my heart, but lower than it.
     
  4. Marco

    Marco Old blackguard

    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes:
    1,010
    Near Cognac, France
    Hi Valentijn


    One thing I found many years ago was a cheesy weight loss programme called 'Oxycise' designed as an easy method to lose weight and tone muscle or for those unable to exercise conventionally.

    The 'method' consists of taking a deep breath through the nose until the lungs are full and then take a further three sharp intakes again through the nose;

    Exhale the full breath through pursed lips until the lungs are empty and follow immediately with three rapid further exhales through the lips.

    Repeat three times (NB this is intended to be combined with various postures).

    The rationale for weight loss is that increased oxygenation increases fat burning. Take the advertising guff with a pinch of salt.


    Despite my skepticism about the claims made for this as a weight loss/exercise method, being unable to exercise aerobically I have used this for many years combined with whatever yoga poses I can comfortably manage.

    While this has no impact whatsoever on my capacity for aerobic exercise or in avoiding PEM it has allowed me to maintain a 'healthy' weight and muscle tone to the extent that I can manage most everyday physical activities if I avoid aerobic effort. It has also helped me maintain lung function despite being a 30 per day smoker (last time tested my lung function parameters were equivalent to someone 10 years younger).

    It appears to target visceral fat specifically (on the exhale of the cycle you can really feel the core abdominal muscles tighten). It also has the added benefit of relieving constipation if this is a problem.

    A short word of warning is that initially you may find the forced breathing makes you a little lightheaded which is hardly what we need. This passes with time and may not affect you when prone.

    What I've described I use with upright postures but I can't see why you couldn't use it with whatever stretching or muscle compresssion you can manage while lying down. You may even find that strengthening the core abdominal muscles helps when upright.

    PS This should have minimal effect on your heart rate.

    Might be worth a try.

    Marco
     
  5. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    273
    Surrey
    Velentijn,
    I don't know where they get the 55% concept from but as far as I know the heart rate is irrelevant.
    From what I know, the aerobic system which is a way the body produces energy, kicks in typically after 90 to 120 seconds of uninterrupted exercise.
    If you stay under say one minute and half of whatever exercise you want, your muscles will operate in anaerobic mode, regardless of the heart rate.

    Have a look at this link from Dr Myhill's site
    http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Exercise_-_the_right_sort

    And to answer your question ref abdomen and legs these are the ones I started with myself. At the beginning I could only do 10 secs each.
    abdomen: pilates plank
    quads: squat but without moving up and down, just remain in position like a downhill skier (keep your back straight and your knees shouldn't be further out than your ankles/feet)
    back: the first exercise as demonstrated in this video by Dr McGuff (it's so effective) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSIiPmSBdro

    all the best
     
  6. Calathea

    Calathea Darkness therapy

    Messages:
    1,096
    Likes:
    563
    Scotland
    There's a book called Get Fit in Bed which gets excellent reviews. I downloaded it from Amazon, using a free Kindle app on my laptop, but haven't got around to trying it yet due to a crash. That looks worth a try.
     
  7. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,500
    Likes:
    9,620
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    Great ideas, thanks :D Though I do want to keep my heart rate low, to see if it helps.

    A few websites I just found:
    http://tsingle.info/exercises_on_your_back.html (way at the bottom)
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/419696-gentle-exercises-when-lying-down/
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/415831-lying-down-leg-strength-exercises/

    I think I will try the book too ... it's got a lot more variety, and the photos look good in the preview. I just wish they didn't call it "chronic fatigue" in the summary!
     
  8. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes:
    6,421
    USA
    I'm still confused by this whole aerobic/anaerobic thing, but I think this might clarify some of it: (I've separated paragraphs and bolded)

    From Wikipedia topic "Anaerobic Exercise"
    Exercise_zones.jpg

    So, I'm thinking that short burst, under 30 sec (or maybe 90-120 sec as xrunner suggested) exercise uses the first anaerobic energy system (high energy phosphates, ATP, and CP) but there is very little of that stored. We quickly move to aerobic (or predominantly aerobic) metabolism until we can't get enough oxygen to the muscles. Then the second type of anaerobic energy metabolism takes over (anaerobic glycolytic) which produces a lot of lactic acid (and other changes).

    Looking at the table above, my anaerobic threshold (AT) is approximately that of 65yo (I'm 54yo). My problem is that sitting upright puts me at the bottom edge of the aerobic (cardio training/endurance) zone. Sitting with my feet up in a recliner has me in the weight control (fitness/fat burn) zone. (Yeah right. Like that is working to burn fat and control my weight...NOT). Even laying down I'm at the top end of the moderate activity zone.

    So, my anaerobic threshold is about 8 bpm low for my age, but the real complicating factor is that I get to it so easily. Getting showered and dressed in the morning is "hardcore exercise" to "maximum effort" (according to heart rate) for me according to this chart. Pretty much anything I do that involves moving is "hardcore exercise".

    I remember Connie telling me (through a food-poisoned fog) that the goal for PWME is to get the resting heart rate down so that there's more room to work before hitting the AT. Don't quote me on that, though. :D

    Is any of this fitting in with what the rest of you know or experience?

    PS Taking that chart as strictly true (which is likely not for the likes of us), I work a hell of a lot harder every day than my smug personal trainer little sister. :victory:
     
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  9. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    7,069
    Likes:
    6,032
    Albuquerque
    Hi SOC,

    My resting heart rate has gone down about 10 points after about a year on GcMAF and Nexavir. My doctor said that this may relate to having higher blood volume now. But it also does give me more "wiggle room" before reaching my "no-no" heart rate.

    Best,
    Sushi
     
  10. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes:
    6,421
    USA
    Here's some more info from Wikipedia, FWIW.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_rate

    I had my max heart rate tested 4 or 5 years ago (I dont recommend it) and it was about 15 bpm lower than that calculated by max heart rate formulas. My AT was about 74% of the calculated max heart rate or about 81% of my measured max heart rate. Using measured max heart rate, the AT at 80% of max HR is correct for me.

    This method uses max heart rate and resting heart rate to calculate activity levels. Its probably better for us than other methods which don't consider our abnormal max heart rate and resting heart rate.
    So, my theory for my activity and heart rate is:
    -calculate max heart rate by one of the better methods at the link above (166 for me)
    -subtract 15 bpm (it worked for me, at least) to get closer to actual max heart rate (151 for me)
    -find your resting heart rate (87 for me)
    - use the formula: ((HRmax HRrest) x 0.8) + 70 to get an estimate of AT (124 for me measured recently was 125)

    "Moderate exercise/walking": heart rate should stay in the 50-60% range (102 108 for me)

    In this range I can upright in a chair. So I can tutor fine, or get ready in the morning if I sit as much as possible and consider it "moderate exercise". This I can maintain for 2-3 hours before my heart rate starts to climb into the next range.

    For "exercise" heart rate should stay in the 60-70% range (108-115 for me)

    In this range I can walk slowly very short distances, like vacuuming or cooking. Unfortunately, I can't stay here very long -- a minute or two, tops.

    For "aerobic exercise" heart rate should stay in the 70-80% range (115-124 for me)

    In this range I can climb one flight of stairs carefully, walk short distances like house to car or house to chair in yard. Can't stay here long, either -- less than 2 minutes.


    When I look at it this way, I'm getting a lot of exercise every day. :D In fact, it looks like I'm doing a pretty good job, all things considered. On a normal day, I get 3-4 hours of "moderate exercise", 15-30 minutes of "exercise" (in 1-2 minute increments), and 15-30 minutes of "aerobic exercise" (in less than 2 minute increments). Do Wesseley or White do 4-5 hours of exercise daily? ;)

    So my current goal is to walk, slowly enough to stay in the "aerobic exercise" range, for 3 minutes. Maybe this will develop some endurance...?

    I don't know if this will work for anyone else, but it fits my situation pretty well.

    PS I also bought that exercise in bed book but haven't tried it yet.
     
  11. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

    Messages:
    316
    Likes:
    89
    Sydney
    You probably want short bursts of full body exercises. I agree with planks, also being in a pushup position with arms locked without doing one. Probably better to look at yoga exercises and do 5-10 seconds of different ones.
     
  12. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,438
    Likes:
    11,851
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    I am looking at starting something similar, but I did a calculation and reached a maximum heart rate of 93 using a 55% of predicted maximal heart rate limit. I probably go higher playing computer games!

    Two strength building exercises can be done easily in any position.

    The one I do not recommend (usually) is isometric training. Basically you hold your breath and pit one part of your body against the other. This raises blood pressure, which might be good in OI, but I have to watch my bp going too high as well as too low so I avoid this. There should be plenty of internet guides on this though I have not looked.

    The other one is similar but from chinese martial arts: dynamic tension. Essentially you go through whatever motion you want - typically something you want to be able to do - and tense opposing muscle groups so the movement is slow. During this you continue breathing though, which I think is a good idea. This is weight training without weights, and since the resistance is your own muscles its completely relative to your current physical capacity. Simply tensing muscles can qualify as this without movement, so back or stomach muscles can be tensed, but some movement is desirable to allow strength to build over a range of motion. I have used this technique in the past and tolerated it OK, but back then I probably did it too hard for too long. As for breathing, traditionally you breath out during the exercise, and breath in between repetitions.

    Bye, Alex
     
  13. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    273
    Surrey
    If you stay under 90 secs there's no way of the system shifting to aerobic, particularly if you rest between sets. The key thing is that whatever exercise you do you should not suffer any PEM. If that happens, it means either a) you shouldn't exercise or b) you well exceeded your limit. The heart rate (unless you have some specific heart problem) is a non-issue. It's more helpful to stay focused on other physical sensations that tell you if you're pushing to hard such as for e.g. feeling light headed, feeling unrelaxed, not feeling good afterwards.
    I've done high intensity resistance training for about a year now. I started being able to do three or four exercises for a few seconds. I can now do the big-5 routine of Dr Mcgouff for about a minute each and with loads higher than most healthy people I see in the gym (except the big guys).
    I admit that I feel quite out of breath and sometimes weak straight afterwards but after a shower I usually feel good.
    If you don't suffer PEM this training will also increase your aerobic threshold, that is if you let your heart free. I realised that from long walks or walking uphill which has been getting easier. However, I still don't feel comfortable running or cycling other than in short bursts, even all out, but for no longer than a couple of minutes (i.e. anaerobic mode).
    all the best
     
  14. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    273
    Surrey
    My experience with yoga is a no-no. I used to do it when I wasn't too well and I got so flexible whilst my muscles got weaker that I injured both my shoulders with simple movements. it took me over six months to re-instate some strength and stability in my shoulder ligaments and muscles and one still hasn't completely recovered.
     
  15. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    7,069
    Likes:
    6,032
    Albuquerque
    A fair percentage of us have Ehlers-Danlos type 3--hypermobility. I do also, and yoga tend to make it worse because of the emphasis on stretching tendons and ligaments that are already to flexible and stretchy. Also, a lot of it is done standing which makes it difficult for the OI and POTS bunch.

    I have done better with pilates done lying down on weighted pilates machines which builds core muscles and helps compensate for the stretchy collagen of EDs.

    Best,
    Sushi
     
  16. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,362
    Likes:
    6,421
    USA
    I'm still at the stage of trying to avoid PEM. Something that I can do okay one day will give me a week-long PEM bout another. That may just be an indication of how poor my function is -- I'm probably in the "a) you shouldn't exercise" range. Any traditional exercise makes me feel not good. Still, I'm one of those limit-pushers and am sorely tempted to try some exercise.

    The whole heart rate thing helps me judge better what I can probably do in terms of basic self care at any given time -- or makes it less guesswork, anyway. I'm trying to do as much as I can without PEMing, which is a very, very delicate balance.

    So, all the heart rate range info may be meaningless for us, it's true. I'll start with the three or four exercises for a few seconds and see where it gets me. If I get a bad case of PEM, I'll know who to blame! Just kidding, of course. ;)
     
  17. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,438
    Likes:
    11,851
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    You shift to aerobic energy when you run out of convenient stored energy. This means ATP and glycogen I think, please correct me if I got that wrong its been more than a decade since I looked at this. I am not familiar enough with creatine phosphate kinetics to comment much. The supply of these is a VARIABLE. 90 seconds? Not for a trained athlete. Also not for someone with a glycogen storage disease - they run out FAST. Any estimate on how long it takes is a guess, and one based on a variable. Its probably correct for the average person - but we are not average people. So for some of us its accurate, for some (when rested and eating right) its probably longer, but for most of us I suspect 90s is too long to use as a reliable figure - I would prefer to use 30s with longer rest breaks than for a healthy person. This is a good question to ask those at Pacific Labs though - they might be able to give us a better answer. Bye, Alex
     
  18. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

    Messages:
    596
    Likes:
    273
    Surrey
    Good point Alex!
     
  19. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,500
    Likes:
    9,620
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    I think you might be right about the lower amount of stored energy. My fiance thinks my low amounts of Krebs Cycle components means I have a low buffer/reserve. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's something to look into.

    Can we build up that reserve better when doing nothing for a while, and could that explain why some symptoms (like OI) are better in the morning and if I'm lying down all day? Does just being upright eat into those meager reserves? If so, it could support the encouragement of bed rest and avoidance of unnecessary activity.
     
  20. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,438
    Likes:
    11,851
    Logan, Queensland, Australia
    Hi Valentjin, I think that their are probably two components in resting, its just my take on things, I could be wrong. The first is that resting puts less stress on you so that various hormones can normalize better. The second is of course the replenishment of energy reserves. Glycogen in muscles, in particular, takes many hours to fully restore - its why athletes sometimes do carb loading before an event. ATP should be restored much faster, but I am aware that our ATP restoration rate is thought to be lower than normal.

    Bye, Alex
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page