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Stupid/Cranky and arbitrary doctors: rant warning!

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Valentijn, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    You are one of Kina's AOTPs! :rofl:
    Valentijn likes this.
  2. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I'm an ENTP. (now that you've reminded me what it's all about)
    But I don't know why I didn't come up as judgemental - I tend to see things in a very black and white sort of way in real life, I'm not too good at grey areas there, although I'm fine with them academically.
  3. vamah

    vamah Senior Member

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    I am also INFJ. Have been since I first took the test 25 years ago. It's interesting that there are so many of an unusual type here.
  4. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    Maybe it's indicative of the sort of person who chooses to seek answers for their suffering on an international forum of sufferers, for the questions doctors can't/refuse to answer, rather than going along with the mainstream? :p
    Moxie, Little Bluestem and Valentijn like this.
  5. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

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    I love how the thread diverted! Now I think I'm gonna take the MBTI. I'm very curious to see how it fits in with Chinese element theory, which I've been using for years now to interact with others. It's amazing how accurate it is; I can describe people quite accurately within a few minutes of meeting with them.
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I am strongly INTP. I always want to understand. Its what drives me. Its why I am here, in part. One other thing that drives me is that I finally understood how hard it is for many other patients, particularly in the UK. I have spent countless hours in chat and on forums reading about things, as well as real life talks with local PWME. Things are bad here, and indeed everywhere, but I hear more problems out of the UK than anywhere else, and more severe problems.

    I first started causing issues with docs in the 1990s when one wanted to run a test and I said no, it was the wrong test, run this one. He was visibly angry. In any case I went to another doc, who then called for the test results from the pathology lab. She was sceptical but I can work with an intelligent sceptic for a while.

    I don't think many doctors realize how often we give up on them and move on. I don't think they realize how after years of failure we often take charge and do our own thing. It couldn't be any worse than the unrelenting medical failure we get from most doctors. Finding a good doc I can work with is not easy. Its happened only three times, and one of those was fined (there is no treatment for CFS therefore it must be fraud kind of thing), one openly admitted he could not treat CFS and was confused by it, and the last keeps up with the research and is my current ME doc. Two of those docs I found by researching literature ... which doctors are publishing stuff or going to seminars and conferences in your area?
    roxie60 likes this.
  7. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    Interesting.

    I am officially an ENTP, but on the points that really matter to the distinction between E and I, I am Introverted deep down. I score in the very middle on the test on that dimension.

    Therefore, maybe the judging/perceiving dimension is one where you are right in the middle between the two, but the test had to place you in one or the other category, and it went with "P".

    At the time you took the test, was most of your work being done or time being spent in academic pursuits/environments (such as being a student, or working in an academic environment)? If so, that might have affected how you answered the questions.
  8. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    I was in an Open University summer school. :nerd:

    I have to say though, that I really do not think that extraversion/introversion are reliable constructs.
    Eysenck related extraversion to the level of arousal in the brain-stem, suggesting extraversion was related to low arousal, so that stimulation is required to arouse it...
    (I think he was geting psychopathy mixed up with it)

    But the theory was that extraverts are more interested in their surroundings than in themselves, while introverts were not interested in their surroundings but only in their own selves and thoughts.

    Then there is the public percetion of it, which is that extraverts are generally, somebody big and bouncy and full of life, while introverts are quiet and shy.

    I'm extravert because I'm timid and shy and want to entertain people, so that they will like me and not attack me. :love:
  9. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    I agree that it is interesting that there are so many of a certain type on this thread.

    I also think that most of the people who have volunteered their MBTI result here are female too, but I'm not sure.

    From my limited experience on the entire website, I would not think that this high percentage of Fs or of Ns that we have here would be present on all threads. In other words, I sense that there is a more even representation of Ts and Ss generally on the site.

    The I or E is harder to tell on the internet, but there might be a tendency for Introverts to be drawn towards anonymous discussion forums for social interaction and sharing of knowledge.

    Also, as has been noted by a previous commenter, over time, having CFS/ME might pull some people towards being or acting introverted.

    I do feel that there are more Js than Ps on this site (which is also how it feels in real life too - to me, as a P). :)

    ===
    Generally, personality type is set by age 5 and remains pretty stable. There is a big genetic component. It's not something that is entirely up to the environment, one's upbringing, or one's "will", so to speak, of how one wishes to be.

    They are actually doing research on the genetics of personality type, and if I remember correctly, the clearest one there is genetic evidence of so far is Extraversion/Introversion. They've got some SNPs (like from 23andMe results) and everything. There are a number of journal articles about it.

    I posted about this research on two threads on Phoenix Rising a couple of weeks ago, but I think I offended some people on at least one of the threads who didn't like the idea of "personality type" and/or academic psychology!
    GracieJ likes this.
  10. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    Or, maybe you just need to find a safer neighborhood to live in! :p

    ----
    If you were taking a course at the OU, then you may live in the UK? It is so much easier to be introverted in the UK than in the US! Ah, it's a paradise for introverts who want to mind their own business.

    I love it on the tube and UK trains when everyone in the carriage is reading and not looking at each other, and they are not trying to carry out mind-numbing small talk with strangers, like Americans do. (And I say that as an American.)
  11. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    To take the official MBTI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator), it costs money (though I think it can be worth it), but you can do a quick and easy free approximation of the test online on several different websites. Use search terms like Kiersey Temperament Sorter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keirsey_Temperament_Sorter) or free MBTI, and take the long version of the test, which should take 20 to 30 minutes and have a lot of questions (like over 100). That one is more accurate than the test that takes 5 minutes and has 20 or so questions.

    The Kiersey test results/explanations are a little different than the MBTI's -- see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keirse...-Briggs_types_versus_Keirsey.27s_temperaments.
    They are generally similar.
    Though I have taken the Kiersey and gotten slightly different results at different times.
    I like the MBTI better.

    Note that academic Psychology's version of the MBTI is the Five Factor Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits), which also costs money to take.
    I don't like it so much.
    Some academic psychologists pooh-pooh the MBTI though. So I thought I'd just mention the Five Factor Model here.

    Here are the correlations between the 3 instruments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Correlations_to_other_instruments

    ---
    GracieJ, is the Chinese element theory the one with wood, wind, fire, earth, metal? Is it based on personality, physical constitution (like the Indian Ayurveda system apparently is), and/or birth date?

    What do you look for in other people when getting a sense of their elemental makeup? How do you apply that to how you interact with them?
  12. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    Yay, a fellow INTP!

    I have seen your posts and icon image before on Phoenix Rising -- he too an INTP, some conjecture ("According to Keirsey, based on behavioral characteristics, notable archetypes might include Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, and Thomas Jefferson." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTP

    This is what you describe in your search for CFS/ME information and treatment: "They also tend to be impatient with the bureaucracy, rigid hierarchies, and the politics prevalent in many professions. INTPs have little regard for titles and badges, which they often consider to be unnecessary or unjustified. INTPs usually come to distrust authority as hindering the uptake of novel ideas and the search for knowledge." (same source)
    alex3619 likes this.
  13. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

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    I am an INFP :) Be interesting to see who else is INFP.
  14. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    Latest list:

    INFJ - Misfit Toy
    INFJ - Ema (she was previously an ENFJ; 3.3% of females are ENFJs)
    INFJ - Kina
    INFJ - Vamah
    INFJ - Moxie (previously was an INTJ)
    1.6% of females are INFJs​
    1.2% of males are INFJs​

    INTJ - Valentijn
    INTJ - Roxie60 (although her memory on this is fuzzy)
    INTJ - SOC
    INTJ - Little Bluestem
    0.9% of females are INTJs​
    3.3% of males are INTJs​

    INTP - Bluebell (she is an I deep down, although the test shows her as slightly ENTP)
    INTP - Alex3619
    INTP - Valentinelynx (whose spouse is INTP too)
    1.7% of females are INTPs​
    4.8% of males are INTPs​

    INFP - Taniaaust1 (originally; though now is I S/N F/T J. No official % to report on that one ;) )
    INFP - Rosie26
    4.6% of females are INFPs​
    4.1% of males are INFPs​

    --
    There are 16 personality types, so if they were distributed equally in the population and balanced between the two genders, each type would be 6.25% of men and women.
    Some types have a much bigger share of the population in reality, though -- some types cover as many as 1 in 5 and 1 in 6 of people. That can make the low-representation types stand out and seem different, especially in cultures that value conformity.
    Interestingly, women tend to cluster in a few main types more than men do, so the women who are unique seem even more odd in comparison to the set of all women than the men who are unique do in comparison to the set of all men. (It's also a feeling that I get as a woman that women are all 'expected' to be more similar to each other than men are expected to be.)
    S people and J people are in the top two types of both men and women.
    Most women are Fs, most men are Ts.

    You can get an idea of the variation from these tables: http://www.careerplanner.com/MB2/TypeInPopulation-Males-Females.cfm

    ---
    1 in 59 women are my type of INTP, and I really feel how different I am to most women. This has not diminished as I've gotten older. I have been accused of being Spock-like. :eek: That's nice! :oops:
    Although just 1 in 62 women are INFJ (which many in this thread are), probably their F and their J make them seem to others more like a "normal" woman.
    Even much less common: Only 1 in 111 women are the type of Valentijn and Roxie60. But we all know that Valentijn is a special case :lol: . [And maybe the gentle Roxie60's recollection of her type was a bit off. :p ]

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>
  15. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

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    It looks like you just needed the right audience, Bluebell!! :) Maybe those of us not putting up with dip---- at the doctor's office are the most interested in the profiling. LOL

    I found a site for the Myers-Briggs testing. Maybe in the next few weeks.

    Yes -- wood, earth, metal, water, fire. Chinese element theory is a rough translation. Telling the story behind it would be a very flowing, lyrical tale of creation out of one source, and that everything is connected through what came -- the elements. It is an explanation of the physical world around us and the one within us, as well as our emotional/spiritual make-up. It is the basis of Chinese medicine as well as many cultural aspects.

    As for personalities and people, I look at the way they talk and what they say (clients or co-workers, usually), even what may be written on the chart. It is probably a little easier with massage clients, because their body pain is very closely connected to their typing and how they see the world.

    If I am dealing with a wood personality, I keep information factual, focused, and quick. If I am dealing with an earth, I may express a feeling as a response. If it is a metal, keep it organized! A water likes things simple, generally speaking. Fire people -- just enjoy!! I'd have to go into more detail than needed here to explain, really. The best way to go about it is to think of every-day words that describe the person that describe an element. "She goes with the flow" -- water. You may respond to someone new quite often with a thought that gives away what you see.

    My favorite analogy is Winnie the Pooh's gang -- Pooh is an earth, Eeyore a metal, Piglet a water, Rabbit a wood, and Tigger is all fire!
  16. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

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    So, back to the thread...

    I remember the early years of having all these symptoms. It was 14 doctors in 8 years, and we didn't get very far. Mostly, it was a hurried, impatient conclusion of needing anti-depressants. Ha, ha. "Well, if all they do is help you sleep, you need them." Hunh?? Never mind having upset digestion, breathing issues, bad skin, a challenged liver, and hair the texture of dry straw, among other things. I kissed that regime good-bye in 1995, for good. The doctor I had help me wean off just laughed as he wrote my last prescription, tranquilizers by my request to help me gradually come off. He told me I'd be back. I very emphatically told him he would never see me in his office again -- ever.

    Only one doctor would even listen to the full picture. That was in 1992, when the media picked up on fibromyalgia. I clipped a symptoms list and took it to the doctor. He agreed I had all those symptoms (about 12 listed), but told me I was "not in enough pain" to qualify for the diagnosis.

    After those 14 doctors, my luck got better. Also, I was seeing alternative doctors, and have ever since. The first one, I love him dearly and we are good personal friends to this day, but he was all about research and facts and really never saw what I was talking about! I have to tell this one on him: I was in one day getting a Meyers cocktail, which he would administer. (He was practicing independently, no office staff.) He very excitedly went off on his latest research venture, about the effect of candida overgrowth in the body. Um, doc... hey, hello??? I have that. Have tried to discuss it with you many times now... He stopped short and looked at me with a blank look on his face. I almost laughed. He loves learning, but somehow applying it to people in real life situations was going past him. We never did get to a practical discussion. I love him anyway, a variation on the absent-minded professor.

    The next two doctors were heaven-sent. One was a woman, while I was in Alaska. She looked at my history, my notes on my intake form, read for a few minutes, asked a few questions, then finally looked up at me and said, "You have chronic fatigue syndrome. But you already knew that, didn't you?" I could have cried for joy, even as anti-climactic as the moment was at the 14-year mark of having symptoms. I made a lot of progress with her help.

    Back in Utah, I found an alternative clinic run by a medical doctor, and when I need a doctor, he is who I see. (Since 2005.) We ran into a bit of a dead end a couple of years ago. He is not a CFS specialist, and was stumped. But he had given me prescriptions for everything I asked for, per the same course as the previous doctor. It's great having a relationship with a good doctor. He trusts me, and we can try anything I want as long as it's legal! It was nice recently with the bad insomnia and migraine episodes I've been dealing with -- I finally called uncle and went in to get the heavy ammunition. He wrote out scrips for Lortab and Ativan without too many questions. He knows I won't abuse them, and a few months from now, I will take both bottles in to show what's left, as I plan on using very little of either one.

    He also is on to the mold and toxicology theories, and had an extremely marked-up copy of Shoemaker's book, parts of which he shared with me. He is encouraging me to try the CSM route and see what that does. It was nice discussing pertinent lab tests! He also recommended oxytocin shots. Haven't decided on those yet.

    I was going to make connections with the CFS specialist here in my city, but she has a three-year wait list. Since my doctor is moving forward with theories, I think I will continue seeing him. The hour drive is hard, but at least it is only an hour.
    Valentijn and rosie26 like this.
  17. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    I thought "diploma? dipstick? diplopia?" I don't know what word you are being polite about, but I can see by the context that it's something that isn't good! :D

    Thank you for your explanation of the Chinese Elements and how you use them to inform your interactions with people - that was helpful.

    Oops, I had added wind/air, and left out water!

    I guess air is from the Tarot system and Ayurveda system.

    I think in Ayurveda I am part Vata (air) and part Kapha (earth). Very little about me that is their third type, Pitta (fire)! I'm the tortoise in "the tortoise and the hare".

    Since air is kinda my main thing, I don't know how that would translate in the Chinese Elements system. ...I am eyeing "wood" suspiciously -- but I hope I'm not a Rabbit (he was prim and persnickety, and not liked very much?)! But I'm none of the others in Winnie the Pooh. Or can I be Christopher Robin? :D
  18. GracieJ

    GracieJ Senior Member

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    We probably should get a community lounge thread running! :)

    Bluebell Air falls under the metal element.

    An unbalanced wood is probably the least popular person out there. Can you say control freak? My way or the highway!! A lot of CEOs are wood types -- hard, factual, driving people. A balanced wood, though, can be very patient (think how long it takes to grow an oak tree). They are the drivers in our world, people who get things done.

    I also like the system generally used in energy medicine, which embraces the four Ayurvedic elements. All of these are good! The color system, DISC, four animals, all are great analogies.

    Note to self: Ask son with psych degree and now in grad school about some of these psych tests. :)
  19. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    Apologies to Valentijn for this excessive diversion in her thread.
    I have a feeling she's okay with it, though. ?? :cool: Hope so.

    <<<<<<<<<<<<
    There are some linkages to some of these MBTI types to Asperger's:
    for example, this guy says, for Asperger's, that "the most common type is INTJ followed by INTP and ISTJ" http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...rices/3385-asperger-s-syndrome-mbti-type.html

    Thus I wonder, since the MTHFR genes are associated with autism, if the MTHFR genes are also related to personality type. ?

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<
    Valentijn likes this.
  20. Bluebell

    Bluebell Senior Member

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    If he studied at a typical US university, I bet he'll say that the only thing they mentioned was the Five Factor Model by Costa and McCrae, unless he studied business/organizational, personality, or maybe counseling psychology.

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