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Study Shows Link Between Sleep and ATP

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Lotus97, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It's been well established that many people with CFS have issues with ATP and sleep, but a study suggests there might be a connection between the two. I hope someone who is more familiar with the technical jargon can look at the study and explain the significance of it (if any) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/09/100914100302.htm#

    The researchers documented how ATP (adenosine triphosphate), the fundamental energy currency of cells, is released by active brain cells to start the molecular events leading to sleep. The ATP then binds to a receptor responsible for cell processing and the release of cytokines, small signaling proteins involved in sleep regulation.
    By charting the link between ATP and the sleep regulatory substances, the researchers have found the way in which the brain keeps track of activity and ultimately switches from a wakeful to sleeping state. For example, learning and memory depend on changing the connections between brain cells. The study shows that ATP is the signal behind those changes.
    The finding reinforces a view developed by Krueger and his colleagues that sleep is a "local phenomenon, that bits and pieces of the brain sleep" depending on how they've been used.
    The link between sleep, brain cell activity and ATP has many practical consequences, Krueger said.
    For example:
    • The study provides a new set of targets for potential medications. Drugs designed to interact with the receptors ATP binds to may prove useful as sleeping pills.
    • Sleep disorders like insomnia can be viewed as being caused by some parts of the brain being awake while other parts are asleep, giving rise to new therapies.
    • ATP-related blood flow observed in brain-imaging studies can be linked to activity and sleep.
    • Researchers can develop strategies by which specific brain cell circuits are oriented to specific tasks, slowing fatigue by allowing the used parts of the brain to sleep while one goes about other business. It may also clear the way for stroke victims to put undamaged regions of their brains to better use.
    • Brain cells cultured outside the body can be used to study brain cell network oscillations between sleep-like and wake-like states, speeding the progress of brain studies
    August59 and SickOfSickness like this.
  2. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    ATP is the most fundamental energy currency in the body, though not the only one. Almost everything depends on it.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I knew what ATP was, but it seems counterintuitive that something that increases energy would help with sleep. There were times where I've felt ATP supplements to be overstimulating, but then other times where I was taking a lot and they didn't cause any problems. After I read this study last year I started taking coenzyme q10 an hour before bed. I can't really say how it affected my sleep though since I was taking elavil and risperdal also:sleep:
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I suppose our body still needs a good amount of energy when sleeping as this is when the repair phase happens. Maybe we should be taking energy supps like creatine and ribose at night??
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was wondering the same thing about those supplements, but the part about the repair phase happening during sleep seems to make sense. I made a significant recovery during a period where I was getting 10+ hours of sleep consistently for over a year. I also was taking supplements to boost ATP and glutathione and for various other things. Plus I was eating healthy and limiting activities during the day. I'm sure the other things I mentioned helped, but I think the sleep was the most important. Before that period of sleeping well consistently, there were times when I did manage get a good night's sleep and I felt better the next day. There were even times were I'd wake up nauseous early in the morning, but if I was able to fall back a sleep when I'd reawaken my nausea would be gone. (BTW, it's very hard to fall back asleep when you're nauseous)

    One thing I heard someone saying recently was that getting ATP and the Krebs Cycle functioning properly can also increase glutathione.
    Try to make sure the Krebs cycle is not blocked. Mine was in lock down at the AKG stage with really high AKG intra-converting to glutamate and back. Meanwhile with insufficient ATP, I could not make glutathione. RIch Vank (bless his soul) identified that while I had one of the lowest glutathione levels he has ever seen, the methylation cycle was at best a minor player in that. He suggested working on the Krebs cycle and high dose vitamin C a la Dr Robert Cathcart and bam my glutathione tripled in six months.
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I wonder how a slow release protein drink with some ribose and creatine would go? Just a thought. We need those nutrients present there for growth hormones etc which is released when we are asleep. I have seen some slow release protein powders on the market too.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I usually have trouble sleeping if I'm hungry, but that's because I have hypoglycemic symptoms. I usually have a meat meal about 2 hours before going to bed, but protein powder would be good for most people. According to Ayurveda it's better to not eat much before bed because your body is working on digesting rather than repairing the body so protein powder would be good since it doesn't take much power to digest it. Maybe some fiber also to slow down it's digestion. Just a side note about Ayurveda. I don't always base my health decisions on something 3000 years old, but there are some interesting ideas.

    Doesn't Creatine gets stored in your muscles so it seems like it wouldn't really matter when you take that, although I have read it recommended before a workout so I could be wrong. I have some creatine that I was going to take, but I'm concerned about hindering detoxification because it is supposed to pull water into the muscle cells when eliminating waste is what's needed. I suppose for other people who've already done the whole cleansing phase it might be good. I think it's relatively cheap in bulk. There's different kinds like creatine malate (malic acid is also good for atp), creatine pyruvate (pyruvate is involved in the krebs cycle), and creatine akg (akg is good for detoxing ammonia which is a problem for people who eat a lot of protein).
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    "Data are consistent with the hypothesis that extracellular ATP, released as a consequence of cell activity and acting via P2 receptors to release cytokines and other sleep regulatory substances, provides a mechanism by which the brain could monitor prior activity and translate it into sleep."

    Full paper: http://jap.physiology.org/content/109/5/1318.full

    If we make less ATP then we probably have less extracellular ATP. This means that parts of the brain that have reduced metabolism might not fully sleep. This would disturb sleep and possibly lead to reduced repair activity in that tissue.

    Could this explain both brain fog and twired? I don't know, but it might.

    What seems to be important in this paper is the conclusion that different parts of the brain might not all sleep at the same time or to the same degree. That could be what insomnia is.

    Alternatively, and this is an hypothesis I am following, different parts of our brain are not fully awake due to TNFalpha or other factors. So during waking hours these parts of the brain are not fully awake, and during sleeping hours they are not fully asleep? Possibly. Is this what a Zombie brain state is? ;)

    I have yet to read the full paper.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I mentioned earlier in this thread how sleep made a big impact on my recovery. I would like to add that I believe lack of sleep has contributed to my subsequent relapse over the past 8 months. I'm also considering the possibility that my relapse is contributing to my insomnia in sort of a vicious cycle. If this is true, and based on the findings of this study I wonder if my Kreb's cycle is blocked up due to various reasons discussed in this thread:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/post-your-nutreval-krebs-cycle-results.23166/
    (which I'd highly recommend reading)
  10. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    I noticed that I was all wound up on too much methylfolate and it was affecting my sleep.

    I think I'm lacking some ingredient for health, and cranking up the methyfolate while not having every ingredient in the mix it just doesn't do any good for sleep or well being.
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  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    When I first tried methylfolate last fall I experienced extreme anxiety, but I don't recall it affecting my sleep. It definitely did make my health worse though.
    "Lacking some ingredient for health"... lol, figuring out what that is is easier said than done. The Krebs testing some of the people in that thread in linked to might point a person in the right direction, but if that's not the case or there's something else besides Krebs nutrients missing then you might be regretting your purchase. That's why I'm hesitant to order more tests. I agree they're important, but it can also be a wild goose chase. My doctor has done a lot of the standard tests (which are thankfully covered by my insurance), but I had a hard time convincing her just to get my free T3 and vit d 1, 25 dihydroxy tested.
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  12. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Lotus97

    I think initial testing may be good for determining the infections and heavy metals. They are usually covered by insurance too.

    If you got a nasty virus or bacterial infection, it provides good start.

    But if you know what your infections are, that is probably a good start.

    Like that vague language, kind of explains it eah? The mystery ingredients. :)

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