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Strong medicinal herbs that either fight fatigue or boost immunity

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Ambrosia_angel, Dec 29, 2013.

  1. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    I'm going to start taking moringa leaf in powder form as it is most concentrated that way. More than tea leaves anyway.

    I want to know other stronger herbs that mainly boost the immune system. I think once I get the immune system working better then other benefits like energy will follow.

    I'm also going to start on olive leave extract (oleuropein for energy) and oregano oil as antifungals for chronic yeast infections. Which will also go if I get my immune system running.

    It very hard to find some that actually have proven clinical and I'm looking at making some concoctions as I think that's the only thing that will work.

    I've been looking at spirulina, neem leaf and
    Echinacea which I read can suppress the immune system and that it's mainly good for short term use like colds etc but I'm not sure tbh.

    Also how about the supplement from this company. Do they seem any good?
    http://www.naturya.com/products
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The oxymatrine extract of the herb Sophora flavescens is often used by Dr John Chia on his ME/CFS patients, and some people do very well on this herb — ie, they improve so that they can go back to work, etc. Search this site for more info on oxymatrine for ME/CFS.
  3. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    Wow that sounds great. Definitely going to get it but need to find a reliable uk distributor and I can't find one anywhere. Do you know anywhere?
  4. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    According to Steven Bruhner, herbalist who wrote Herbal Antibiotics and Herbal Antivirals, both availabe as ebooks or in print:

    red root -- also good for clearing lymph
    lomatium
    houttuynia
    Japanese knotweed root (resveratrol) -- also good for nerve damage
    Chinese (baical) skullcap
    isatis (use for no more than 3 weeks)
    licorice root (use only with other herbs, not alone)
    passionflower
    rhodiola
    cordyceps

    He says that most of these are best in tinctures rather than dried herb, if you can't get it fresh. Some of the compounds are only soluble in alcohol and/or water and most lose potency when dried.

    I get a lot of these from VitaminLife and 1stChineseHerbs, both with www. and .com, both in the US. Maybe VitaminLife ships internationally -- not sure.

    Maybe look in a search engine for Chinese herbs in UK/Europe?
    Olena likes this.
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Oxymatrine is hard to come by. You will find some US suppliers in this thread here.
  6. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    Oxymatrine doesn't seem to have any solid evidence that it works does it? Well I know it works but only at 50% and that's still quite low seeing that most of them probably only had a slight improvement. Have u ever taken it?

    Edit : I looked it wrong. Does anyone know where I can find detailed testimonials of the Dr chia's medication?
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2013
  7. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    Thank you for that comprehensive list. I'm definitely going to search more into them. I'm just a bit worried about buying stuff that may not be regulated online from certain companies. Especially that China is far away from England.
  8. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Buhner's books have good references to studies for any of the herbs recommended which depends on your underlying health problems / diagnosis.
    My own experience with several immune modulators is that at best they give you some relief, most don't work. Above all they won't resolve much if your Nagalase is elevated (mine was). It's not a coincidence that the most effective immune modulator, but it does a bit more than that, I have ever tried is Maf 314 (a form of GcMaf) which reduces Nagalase, this is an enzyme that disables the immune system ability to phagocytize viruses, bacteria, etc. I do not know of any other immune modulator or herb that can overcome this block which in my experience is critical to have any chance to recover.
  9. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    I have no idea what condition my immune system is in blood level wise. All I know is that something is not right. I'm literally falling into a pattern on 1 week of infection then one week of recovery then in repeats. I'm starting to wonder if it's same infection fluctiating or my immune system just doesn't have the defensive against new ones.
    I was looking into gcmaf but it is so expensive fore a continuous product.
  10. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    I tried GcMaf and it didn't do a thing except make me a lot poorer.

    Buhner explains why and how our microbes keep coming back. They know how to evade, fool or use our immune systems to their own benefit. What appeals most about his concepts is that various herbs work synergistically with each other, just as pathogens work synergistcally against us, and it takes months to get them under control. You can't pulse the herbs. That only allows the whole cycle to start again so you are back to square one. Some herbs are even synergistic with drugs, like acyclovir and some antibiotics.

    My immune system seems to be in pretty good shape now. I used to get pneumonia twice a year; haven't had it in a couple of years. I did do Equilibrant for six months and felt it helped a lot at the time. I haven't had a cold or the flu in several years, either. At one time I had strep throat every three months. By the time I really got over it, I had it again. Or it may have been an EBV flare. I've read that that is sometimes mistaken for strep throat.

    It's neurological and mitochondrial problems I'm trying to work on now. Hyperacusis, ataxia and extremely low energy.
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It's actually 25% that get significant improvements from oxymatrine, according to Dr Chia's research.

    But a 1 in 4 chance of getting significant improvements seems pretty good odds, in a disease which has little to no treatment options.

    I tried oxymatrine once several years ago, and I did not get any significant results; but I am going to try it again.
  12. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    Okay that makes a bit more sense. I'm new to the biochemical side of this illness.

    I've also made a little list of three things I need to better. One is antifungals, two is immune boosters, three is energy boosters. Each have a few supplements that help with that but it's still a very small list. But I feel that once I target my immune system then the other will follow because then my immune system will attack my chronic yeast infections will give me somewhat more energy albeit small. But also know that it won't hurt to try things like d-ribose as a temp boost.

    So overall all would you all recommend equilibrant then? Because if I get that then it will probably only be that and moringa with some extra olive leaf extract for energy purposes. It would be a big amount in money for me on a continuous bases and I want to be sure I have a small chance of an improvement. I don't even want to think about shipping costs lol. It's good to know that the significant improvement is so high. That doesn't even include the people who got small amount of improvement!
  13. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    Just realised that the equilibrant is not that expensive after doing a currency convert. I don't know why I thought it cost so much... maybe because it has a unique product? I blame brain fog...

    I just emailed them about their delivery prices though
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The oxymatrine I recently bought was this one, and this cost $29.99 plus shipping to the UK $5.00.

    But you have to do a bit of reading about Chia's oxymatrine treatment. There are a lot of complexities connected to this treatment.
  15. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    Thank you. When I emailed Equilibrant they said shipping would cost $18 for 1-2 and $40 for 3 - 4. They also said I would have to sort out customs fees and vat which usually put buyers of. That worried me a bit but when I looked on the customs website it said not customs fee was paid between certain prices unless alcohol or tobacco but so I don't know what fee is. It questions me as to why they can't sought it out before it ships. I've never seen this procedure from other places before..?

    If that oxymatrine seems safe to you then I'll trying that one and incorporate my own leaf extract and other stuff.

    What sort of complexities? With the other ingredients? Or how it works on the body?

    Sorry for all the stupid question.
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The main complexities are feeling worse (flu-like fever) before you get better — so don't stop if you feel worse, as this is in fact a very good sign. Only the people who feel worse on oxymatrine actually get better. If you don't feel worse, you won't get better on oxymatrine. That is the way it works. Usually people start feel worse only after around 6 weeks on oxymatrine.

    Another thing: start slowly. For the first week, take just one 200 or 300 mg capsule a day. Then on the second week, take two capsules. Then on the third week, try three capsules. If you take the full dose (which can be up to 6 capsules a day) immediately, you may overload your system.

    Also, if you do get better, it is very important not to stop taking oxymatrine, because you will relapse. Don't think because you are better, you can now stop. Dr Chia has had a lot of experience with this, and every patient that thought they were better and stopped, subsequently relapsed within days of stopping.

    Some info on oxymatrine treatment of ME/CFS:

    Video presentation by Dr Chia on the Chinese herb oxymatrine.
    Dr. Chia On Oxymatrine, Autoimmunity, ME/CFS and FM
    Oxymatrine



    Equilibrant costs $50 for 90 tablets, plus the $18 shipping to the UK you quoted. So that's a total of $68 for 90 tablets. The oxymatrine I bought was half that price, costing a total of $30 for 100 tablets.

    UK customs fees (import VAT of 20%) are levied on any items costing more than £15. Plus the UK Post Office charge a fee themselves for processing your item through customs, and this fee is quite excessive: £8). Though if the item is delivered by another courier like DHL say, then there is no fee (but there may still be import VAT levied).

    So in my case, my oxymatrine item cost $30 = £18, and so the 20% VAT on that is £3.60.

    However, having bought dozens and dozens of supplements online from the US, I have found that very often, the UK Post Office often don't bother with customs, and so on many occasions you actually pay nothing extra at all. It's a matter of luck: on some items the Post Office levy VAT + their fee; but on others items, they allow them into the UK for free. I'd say that at least half, if not more, of all the items I buy from the US are let in to the UK for free.


    There is a UK supplier of the Chinese herb Sophora flavescens (Ku Shen is the Chinese name) here:

    Ku Shen tincture (Sophora flavescens) 1:3 25% - Bristol Botanicals
    Ku Shen concentrated powder (Sophora flavescens) 5:1 - Bristol Botanicals

    However, Bristol Botanicals do not provide any info on the oxymatrine content of their Sophora flavescens, so this would make dosing a guessing game. The oxymatrine tablets you buy contain 200 or 300 mg of oxymatrine, and this is the right dose. The amount of oxymatrine in Equilibrant remains a secret (it is a proprietary formula), but I imagine it is also around 200 to 300 mg per tablet.

    One could try to estimate the oxymatrine content of these Bristol Botanicals Sophora flavescens:

    I read that standard Sophora flavescens root herb contains 2% around oxymatrine. So this means that the Sophora flavescens 5:1 extract should contain 10% oxymatrine. Therefore 3 grams of Sophora flavescens 5:1 extract will contain 300 mg of oxymatrine.

    So you could trying buying some of the Sophora flavescens concentrated powder 5:1 extract from Bristol Botanicals, and take 3 grams of this powder as your dose. Though Sophora flavescens is one of the worse herbs I have ever tasted. It really is bitter and disgusting. So swallowing Sophora flavescens powdered root will leave you taste buds very unhappy.
  17. Ambrosia_angel

    Ambrosia_angel Senior Member

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    Thank you so much hip. Your info is so helpful. Could you please give me little updates on how the treatment is going? Right now I don't think I'm going to to get oxymatrine. But In the near future I probably will. I want to keep at my current treatments but if your able to little updates about the effects on you then I think it would put my mind at ease about the purity. It's a drug new to me but it seems very intriguing and i might consider ordering it in a few weeks.
    I was actually on Bristol botanicals but their website lacked way too much information for my liking.

    Was it quick and easy to order the oxymatrine from the better life website or did you have to go back and forth emailing them?
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Last time I tried oxymatrine I noticed no improvements, and so I may be one of the non-responders. I am trying again, just to be sure. I am using a modified protocol of my own this time: I am including other supplements, and I think this will be more powerful. But probably nothing will happen, so I will likely have no news to give. Though if I have some success in a few months time, I'll post the details.

    I am not sure why people are concerned about the purity of oxymatrine, when they will happily buy other Chinese herbs. I have not seen any analysis of these Chinese oxymatrine products that shows contaminants, so why the particular concern over oxymatrine? Dr Chia also uses the regular Chinese derived oxymatrine for many patients (Equilibrant contains some other herbs like Astragalus, and this can be too much for some patients, so Chia suggests oxymatrine only).

    I have ordered many different herbs from Bristol Botanicals in the past, and my impression is that their quality is very good. Their range is unsurpassed: they stock even the most obscure herbs.

    It took 2 minutes to complete my order on the better life website, and the oxymatrine arrived in the UK about 1 week later. It is very easy and straightforward to buy items from the US via websites, and items arrive within 10 days or less usually. No emails are required. Have you not done this before?
  19. Iquitos

    Iquitos Senior Member

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    The reason Dr. Chia developed Equilibrant was because so many imported sources of it were found to be contaminated with heavy metals. Personally, I wouldn't order from any source of Chinese herbs that didn't address that potential problem. Air, water and soil contamination in China are very high and there is no regulation or testing before they are exported. Dr. Chia's formulator tests their oxymatrine before compounding Equilibrant.

    Hip, I think including other supplements is a good idea, for the potential synergy. Hope you get some benefit this time around.
  20. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    I can't comment on GcMaf as I never tried it.
    I only tried the probiotic version 314 and it lowered my Nagalase progressively which corresponded to my immune system returning to a more normal state. It acted on my immune system within days which I realised from the improvement in my sleep quality as well as making my gut function almost perfect although it wasn't a problem for me before.
    As a treatment, the Maf may not be sufficient and in fact I benefited from another couple such as mercury and lead chelation and Lyme treatment (this one before the Maf) but I can't see the immune system getting back to normal with other interventions if Nagalase is abnormally high. I tried scores of other treatments over the past years including most mentioned in this thread but when I tested, my Nagalase was still 3.9. I find it quite interesting that Dr Cheney for eg seems to have moved from immunomodulators to using the Maf as part of his main cfs treatment strategy.

    it would have been more helpful to say what your diagnosis is and the Nagalase numbers before and after treatment. It certainly doesn't work for everybody but the studies on patient population of both Cheney and De Meirleir showed a high success rate. I don't remember the exact stats as it was a long time ago I looked at those but they were higher then 50% which is pretty extraordinary with an heterogeneous population such as the one you find in ME/CFS. I do not know any other treatment with such high success rate given we still do not have a cure and still seem quite far even from the idea of it.

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