1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Dr. Kerr, I presume?
Clark Ellis brings us a rare interview with British researcher Dr. Jonathan Kerr who is now living in Colombia.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Streptococcus overgrowth

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Gary1001, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

    Messages:
    592
    Likes:
    209
    Ontario
    No, I said that based on his significant response to the antibiotics. Of course, we can never be completely sure of anything.
  2. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    777
    Likes:
    151
    Anyone thought about trying this treatment yet? It is very tempting as they are great results in just four weeks.
  3. derek30

    derek30

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    7
    Quick update:
    Been on oral vanc for strep overgrowth. Started 125mg three times a day last week. No change in symptoms yet. Going to take a week off, then restart for another week.
    Anyone else tried this before? Anyone have experience with using erythromycin as bioscreen recommends?
  4. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    109
    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    @derek30

    How's it going now Derek?

    Any symptomatic changes?
  5. derek30

    derek30

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    7
    I finished the week of vanc, and symptoms probably became worse during the week. Also sleep became worse, and probably more anxious too. Not sure if it was die off of strep, or maybe I just killed off all the remaining good bacteria?
    I took a lot of probiotics, but wasnt very strict with my diet.
    So then I took 1 week off antibiotics, and yesterday started 1 week of erythromycin 250mg twice daily. At the same time I will take 125mg vanc 1 or 2 times a day every second day during this week. Symptoms a bit better maybe... but it could be the usual fluctuations.

    I decided to start erythromycin again, because I felt a little better last time I took it. Also I have read from peoples experience that they often require several lots of antibiotics before symptoms begin to improve.

    Something that I am also learning is that strep doesnt need to be killed completely, it just needs to be suppressed, and the other bacteria need to be given a chance to grown. For this reason, I am hoping that large doses of antibiotics are not needed.

    Overall from the time I started trying antibiotics, I would say that I have seen some mild improvement. I will repeat a stool test by bioscreen at the end of this month to see if I have made any improvement in bacteria levels. I suspect that my strep levels are slightly better, but still very high. I believe that once bacteria levels are normal, then symptoms should improve immediately or soon after.
  6. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    109
    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    @derek30

    "I believe that once bacteria levels are normal, then symptoms should improve immediately or soon after."

    May I ask why you believe this Derek?

    I'm on the same train of thought a you but
    just wondering how you ended up with that belief?

    Cheers.
  7. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    157
    There is something that I am just going to put on the table ....

    When you have a streptococcus overgrowth in the stomach, it is usually never on its own. They form biofilms with other faculative anaerobes lactobacillus and enterococcus being the most common .... this causes a change in the colon because of super oxide production .... it therefore kills off the anaerobes because of high oxygen levels .... What makes the strep so dangerous is its resilience, hydrogen peroxide production and its protease expression. It seems that antibiotics are like steroids for strep and the more times that strep is hit with antibiotics, the stronger these bacteria become. Their biofilms become stronger, their resistance to antibiotics becomes stronger and the damage they do to the host becomes worse. It is like a dog attack, the more you struggle to get rid of the dog .... the harder it bites .....

    The other thing you need to consider is your immune system. The immune system can not rid the body of these bacteria. It seems the bacteria protease causes an IgA antibody and inflammatory response but the bacteria has some mechanism for beating the antibodies making the antibodies practically useless. So once these bacteria have broken through the gut, they can take up residence in the bodies lymphatic system and create havoc internally, and there they will stay for an eternity because the body has no way of removing them. Therefore, one can never be totally cured of this condition unless these bugs are removed from the lymphatic system. It seems to be the IgA antibodies and the superantigens released because of these bugs can cause the auto-immune condition.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808794/

    There are also other things like acidosis, mitochondrial H2S poisoning, LPS & LTA poisoning, and other toxins coming in through the feces which I have found to disappear once the bugs are killed off in the gut ....

    I can say from personal experience that these bacteria have been playing havoc with me for a couple of years (Mucosal inflammation) .... it wasn't until they got into my gut and broke through my intestine walls that all these problems began .... And now everything other than the auto-immune symptoms have gone after the abx treatment ..

    I just struggle to understand why so many so called learned people who are supposedly 'researching' this disease has not seen these links .... all the science is there.

    Here is the interesting thing, B-type retrovirus, Mono and EBV act in a similar way ....
  8. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    109
    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    @Elph68

    G'Day,

    Useful info as always. But what exactly do you mean by "Here is the interesting thing, B-type retrovirus, Mono and EBV act in a similar way ...." ?

    EBV could be another cause of CFS as it uses the same mechanism as Strep?

    BTW, I'm still waiting on stool analysis results.

    Cheers.
  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,570
    Likes:
    4,193
    Cornwall, UK
    I can't remember whether you provided any links to show that the bugs are in the lymphatic system. If you did, can you post it/again here? Thanks.
  10. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    157
    Hi MeSci,

    I got a couple of things for you .... You mentioned something about the blood/brain barrier in another thread ... Viridans strep species cause 'increased capillary permeability' .... The most extreme case being Kawasaki Syndrome ...

    http://jmm.sgmjournals.org/content/39/5/352.full.pdf

    Viridans Strep induces cytokine release

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC281309/

    And this paper shows how streptococcus spreads throughout the lymphatic system, under experimentation ...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1319547/

    Mims mentions lymphatic system invasion by strep

    https://www.inkling.com/read/mims-m...i-5th/chapter-15/mechanisms-of-spread-through

    And here is an abstract showing that IgA antibodies are ineffective against Strep sanguinis species that produce protease ..... so once the strep get in there ... the body can't get them out ...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9492177

    And this is what I personally have right now ...

    http://www.kau.edu.sa/Files/0004338/Researches/49119_20029.pdf
    MeSci likes this.
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,570
    Likes:
    4,193
    Cornwall, UK
    OK - not time to look at all the links but it does look from two of them as though bugs can infect the lymphatic system. I didn't know that.
  12. derek30

    derek30

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    7
    I agree that strep has many ways of getting into the body and evading the immune system. Antibiotics would make the strep more resistant to further antibiotic treatment, due to natural selection and gene sharing etc. But I dont see how antibiotics can make bacteria become more virulent? Maybe by forcing them to grow elsewhere, or the antibiotics weakened the immune system allowing the bacteria to grow in other places. But I dont think this sort of thing is proven currently, and how severe or likely it is I dont know.
    Often antibiotics need to be used several times for some conditions when a disease persists after an initial course of treatment. Studies show that on second round treatment it is often likely to be as effective for some conditions... Additionally, there are testimonies online of people who used erythromycin for strep with no initial benefit then after a few rounds saw benefit. I definitely understand your concern though.
    What I beleive is that if your strep is gone in your repeat testing and some of your symptoms are still present then maybe these remaining symptoms may be due to something else. Unless you have a reason to suspect that strep is still lingering and there is some evidence for it, you should consider looking for another cause.

    @Jon_Tradicionali
    I think that a lot of symptoms are probably caused directly by the bacteria toxins and also the immune response and antibodies produced. So once the bacteria are gone then symptoms should fade. Some evidence shows that for example in pandas patients using antibiotics and ivig to remove antibodies causes rapid reversal in ocd symptoms. Also for interest without ivig, but only with antibiotics apparently it takes a few months for the ocd symptoms to disappear, which probably is the time it takes for the antibodies to die off rather than the bacteria which probably dies much earlier on. So maybe this may also be an answer for you Elph. Maybe you should just make sure to keep the strep levels low now that you have treated it and maybe the autoimmune symptoms will take a little time to fade.
    Just a thought ;)
    Jon_Tradicionali and MeSci like this.
  13. derek30

    derek30

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    7
    Also Elph, just thinking about the lymphatic issue. From a really basic perspective it would seem ok if the strep is in the lymphatics, as antibiotics can get into there. Also when we have infections it is quite normal for bacteria and viruses to be taken there so antibodies can be created for them. Im not overly familiar with this aspect though. Can you explain why its a problem?
  14. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes:
    527
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virulence

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virulence_factor

    http://textbookofbacteriology.net/themicrobialworld/pathogenesis.html
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
    Jon_Tradicionali likes this.
  15. derek30

    derek30

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    7
  16. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes:
    527
    http://cmr.asm.org/content/26/2/185.abstract
    Full text behind paywall
    http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/6/576.full
    The Interface Between Antibiotic Resistance and Virulence in Staphylococcus aureus and Its Impact Upon Clinical Outcomes
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014
    MeSci likes this.
  17. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes:
    527
  18. derek30

    derek30

    Messages:
    14
    Likes:
    7
    Thanks for the links. I hadnt read up on these before. I never liked the use of antibiotics, as they have so many negative effects on the body as well as good flora also. However, without many other options somtimes we have to resort to these. I would prefer using only herbs and more gentle options, but I am not sure that these will work, or work fast enough... I was actually hoping for a more dramatic change as elph experienced.
  19. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

    Messages:
    163
    Likes:
    109
    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    How long have you had CFS Derek?
    As Elph has only had it for a couple of years I think, so the changes in his case were warranted to be more sudden.

    Where as you or I would perhaps need to take the abx for longer or wait longer for symptom changes after having taken abx.
  20. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    356
    Likes:
    157
    I will try and keep this really basic .... the bacteria in the lymphatic system causes the lymph nodes fluids to become thick and sticky causing them to swell and eventually they block up completely. So very simply, they poison the immune system with toxins such as LTA, H2S and protease, and they probably blast it with hydrogen peroxide which breaks down cellular DNA, all this = immune system dysfunction.

    The bacteria produce toxins that when inside the lymphatic system, kills the immune system. I f you read the papers I have put up, these bacteria cause inflammation, and the production of IgA antibodies and superantigens, but are able to avoid the immune system response. If I can just get one of these darn researchers to see this .... I believe more than half of CFS/fibromyalgia sufferers have the potential to be fully cured ....

    These bacteria have mechanisms to beat the immune system .... and cause the immune system to turn on the body .... Antibiotics can get into the lymphatic system, BUT Strep are resistant to tetracyclene, macrolids, penicillin, fluroquinolines, clindamycin and others. The treatment needs to be stronger than a single oral antibiotic, and probably needs to be iv ..... gentamycin + ampicillin for instance.

    They access the lymphatic system by breaking through the mucous membranes (I have shown how this happens in previous threads) and that is game over for us.

    It seems that a lot of these bacteria carry genes to attack us, but have turned them off over time. It seems that antibiotics turn them back on (again simple explanation) ... then they attack us and teach other strains to do the same by sharing the genes .......


    Cheers.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page