Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Gary1001, Oct 30, 2012.
however long it takes to publish after the study is completed .... probably still 2 years ...
Hi Elph68. What do you think about Proff De Meirliers theory about immune function being effected? After your antibiotics are finished, will the bacteria just come back? Or do you think the immune system should just bounce back once the bacteria are gone?
Ive done bioscreen stool and found strep overgrowth and low ecoli. Tried erythromycin with mild improvement. Now trying oral vanc. Also doing probiotics, prebiotics, bicarb, casein free and gluten free and sugar free diet... etc etc.
So far been a week, and symptoms are probably worse... It may just be die off.
Also, I should note that I am using vanc as pulsed treatment with just 125mg every second day. Reason being that this will cause less disruption to good flora, and prevent bacteria going into hibernation. Im also doing herbals every day to keep the strep from hopefully regrowing too quickly.
I would be very interested to know your thoughts on this?
Is a Dr taking you through this treatment?
We're any other bacteria out of range on the bioscreen test?
I took 500mg of vancomycin per day for 30 days + cipro twice per day + augmentin duo forte twice per day + 500mg azithromycin 3 times per week .... All for 4 weeks .... My stomach is better, sleep better, brain fog gone, memory back, energy back, photophobia and tinnitus reduced, PEM gone ... but I still have auto-immune problems ....
I have completely cut sugars, starches, grains and carbs ...
It is my belief that the strep is in my lymphatic system .... I believe only IV gentamicin will have any chance of complete recovery .... These are tuff bugs .....
I will do another Bioscreen test in a couple of weeks to see the result ......
Strep and enterococcus have a natural resistance to vancomycin .... I reckon the regime u are on will just make the strep more resistant .... And harder to get rid of ....
Eat bucketloads of xylitol .... It will help to suppress the strep further .....
Was strep sanguinis or parasinguinis one of the species identified .... Or was it gordonii, or one of the other mitis group??
I have to tell everybody .... Th abx. Treatment was dramatic with me .... My symptoms never got worse .... I hit the buggers real hard .... And everything except auto-immune problems went .... And the protein/fat diet has kept them clear ....
Can you be certain it's not the diet that's helping you so much ?
I have heard of many others report similiar improvements on high protein/fat diet/no carb as you are reporting.
Hi GP .... I didn't start the no carb thing until after nearly 2 weeks of abx. It was only after they were working I realized I needed to be serious about what I was doing .... And I have no doubt that no carbs has improved my chance of long term remission ....
See what the next lab report says ....
Yep, it's the overgrowth.
Mine (strep virdians, prevotella, rothia) repsonded only slightly to amoxicillin and a low carb (not no).
Anyone know a good online source for these abx?
Thanks for the quick replies!
I dont have the results with me, but the strep was oral source, i think it was oralis and mitis. 99.7% strep. 0.3% ecoli. and 0% lacto and 0% bifido.
I am seeing Dr Cosford in Sydney who seems to know what shes doing. But she doesnt like using Abx. She prefers the herbals.
Heres my understanding... Strep probably has a reservoir in the gut. Once it takes over, the gut becomes leaky due to toxins etc. The strep maybe can leak into the blood where it can potentially get into cells, including macrophages. It probably can also get into the cells lining the gut.
So for treatment probably need something to kill off all the gut reservoir and treat the leaky gut. Additionally there probably is also a need to kill the intracellular strep....
Oral vanc is not absorbed, so good for strep in the gut. Studies show that strep has little to no known resistance against vanc, so this seems quite reasonable. I figure, by taking a pulsed dose for about 3-4 months, this should be long enough to keep the strep in the gut under control, and prevent leaking into the blood. In the meantime, herbals or something like erythromycin is probably needed to be able to get into the cells and kill the intracellular and serum strep. Erythromycin does appear in studies to be capable of doing this. Although 30% of oral strep is resistant... Then if this was also taken in a pulsed fashion, then as the strep gets out of the macrophages, they are killed. Since macrophages live for only 120 days, once the reservoir in the gut is gone, and they are gradually killed with the pulsed dosing in the blood and cells, it should be about 120 days before there should be no more bugs. I would suggest continuing a little longer with herbals to ensure they are all gone, and dont repopulate.
The dose of antibiotics, duration, and timing is all questions I have still. To me, taking a pulsed dose makes sense. Firstly, this will allow the good bugs a better chance to survive and repopulate. Also it encourages more strep to come out of cells, and prevents hibernation. So maybe taking Abx every 2-3 days seems reasonable, with herbals every day.
So my current treatment:
Vanc 125mg every second day 3x/week
Herbals: combination of antimicrobials - twice daily every day
biofilm treatment protocol - kirkmans biofilm defence, mucolytic, chitosan, xylitol, EDTA(not all days), twice daily every day.
gluten free/milk free/sugar free diet
gut healing herbs - glutamine, marshmallow root, fish oil, etc
Modified citrus pectin at night
bicarb 2-3 x daily.
liver cleanse - as per bottle.
I will continue this for about 3 months, and repeat bioscreen stool to see how things are going.
So far... since starting the vanc last week, sx are actually worse, but appear to be gradually improving. Not really sure how quickly this works, especially since I am taking such low doses of Abx. I would expect that initially there is a die off, especially the day following vanc dose... and this is what I am seeing, but the die off is getting less each time. Then once strep is mostly gone I expect symptoms to gradually start improving. I think it will be a gradual improvement, and according to Dr Cosford, it is like a see-saw, up and down but slowly improving until sx are finally gone.
I will definately keep you guys posted
What herbs you using to kill it off Derek?
Im not sure what they herbs are. Theyre made up for me at the clinic. One of the herbs is golden seal. There are combinations that can be bought off the shelf like "herbiotic" that probably will do the trick. But I would need to look online to see what herbs may be better for strep in particular.
I am just throwing a concern out there .... the science says that pulsed treatment may make it worse .... 7 days exposure to macrolides can result in up to an 80% increase in resistance to the abx. by Strep .... The same with vancomycin ..... Their antibiotic resistant plasmids makes them real hard to deal with .... and they can develop total resistance even while they are being taken ....
Keep also in mind, don't forget the prostate ..... that is the BIGGEST reservoir of these bugs .... prostate fluids are all simple sugars which strep love ...... And they will be in there ..... and unless you are a monk, they will get back up your butt from there ....... 4.5g of Azithromycin over 4 weeks .....
And I can tell you personally that 10 day treatments of azithromycin, Augmentin Forte, clindamycin, ciprofloxican and moxifloxican ALL resulted in VERY HIGH resistance in the strep .....
My fingers are crossed ..... Good luck
Yes, I agree with you that pulsed may not be so good. Symptoms did not get much better, and actually may have gotten a bit worse. Since strep doubles in numbers so quickly, taking a pulsed dose probably gives them too much time to repopulate. So killing them off quickly for about 7-10 days with routine antibiotic dosing, following by a week off, then repeat with a week on again may keep the numbers down while giving the good bugs a chance to grow in between. This is what bioscreen recommends. So now I am taking the antibiotics 3x daily, everyday for 7-10 days, and will follow the bioscreen recommendation. So far trying this new method for 2 days... no real change in symptoms yet.
Whilst xylitol is generally safe, consuming 'bucketloads' of anything is probably not a good idea.
There is some info on the safety of xylitol here.
How can you be so sure it's the overgrowth that's being treated? Thanks
I don't understand this question ... the amoxicillin was prescribed to treat the overgrowth I have that was determined by culture of an aspirate of my duodenum fluid.
Sorry ... 10 grams per day is what is recommended for dental caries prevention ....
ie .... keeps strep under control ...
Elph told you about his symptoms and you seemed to agree that, yes it is the overgrowth causing them.
I just wanted to know how you can be so sure? Have had a similar test result and seen benefit from treating these bugs?
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