Stopping SMP supps and increased depression

[sregan]

Every time I have stopped my supplements it seems to increase my depression for a couple of days. I couldn't tell if the depression was brought on by the supps or by stopping them. I believe it is from stopping them and maybe some others can confirm or deny that.

From this article...

"Methylation is critical for the synthesis of all monoamine neurotransmitters as well as histamine. For example, the enzyme that converts norepinephrine to epinephrine, phenylethanolamine N-methyltransferase, requires SAMe as a cofactor for activation. The folate and biopterin (BH4) cycles (Figure 1) help ensure adequate monoamine neurotransmitter production. Biopterin is necessary for the conversion of tryptophan to 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP), phenylalanine to tyrosine, and tyrosine to L-DOPA (L-3,4-dihydroxyphenylalanine)."

I know that when people start antidepressants there is a period where the receptors need to downregulate before the patient will start to feel the benefit. The time period of this I'm sure varies with the individual and the drug. I'm thinking that was methylation is restarted the "neurological brightening" that I've seen Freddd refer to might be due to the influx of these building blocks (or removing the blocks to neutotransmitter production) and the patient will get a large influx.

The receptors are most likely at this time upregulated due to the low quantity of neurotransmitters. The user feels very good until the receptors slightly downregulate to compensate. For me seemed to happen after about 8 hours of feeling really good on my initial attempts at SMP at higher doses of HCbl and Mfolate.

I believe when we abruptly stop SMP we are left with downregulated receptors and a lack of neurotransmitters. For me substantially increasing depression and making it extremely hard to leave the bed in the morning. This has lasted for 1-3 days each time so far. Lessening each day.

I believe it would be best to taper (titrate down) the SMP supps if one wishes to stop instead of an abrupt stop. And/Or possibly on an abrupt stop compensate with supps like Tryptophan + p5p + B3, Na-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalanine.

 

[Xandoff]

SAMe has helped me a great deal, I still have to take my Cymbalta with it. It is very important to take SAMe on an empty stomach, I don't know why, but it does. MY ME Doctor recommended SAMe and he is the one who said to take it on an empty stomach.

 

[Red04]

Depression/fatigue is the first noticeable symptom that comes back when my wife skips the supplements for multiple days. So I guess she has a similar response. It also takes 3 or so days for the symptoms to subside after returning to the protocol. She has never stopped to see if the symptoms go away.

 

[Lotus97]

Methylation does affect neurotransmitters, but folinic acid, methylfolate, and methylcobalamin (possibly also adb12) all affect CNS and neurotransmitters independent of their role in methylation. Most people who talk about the "brightening" assume that it's always a good thing. I'm not completely sold to be honest. We really don't know the long term ramifications for altering neurotransmitters. Maybe it's better than taking Prozac, but when people are describing a euphoria or rush that's something that might not be able to be sustained on a regular basis. There's nothing wrong with feeling good, but with every high there's a low. That's an eternal law of life. Expect otherwise and prepared to be disappointed. These comments aren't directed at the person who started this thread or anyone else. It's just something for people to consider.

 

[sregan]

For the the "brightening" was just a return to my pre-CFS mental condition. Was but a vague memory. Was terrific to have it back for a few hours at a time and sad that it's been gone for so long. It was nothing that felt artificial or like being on drugs or stimulants, etc...

 

[Lotus97]

I wasn't passing judgement on anyone nor was I telling anyone to stop methylation (or lower their dose). I'm still doing methylation and I'd raise my dose if my body could tolerate it. I'm just raising some questions that few people are asking and I'm basing this on some posts that I've read over the past few months. I'm referring mainly to the people taking very high doses, but again I'm not in anyway saying that people shouldn't take high doses if that's what they feel their body needs.

When I used to use marijuana I felt more alive than I ever had in my entire life (including before my illness). Some people say it just makes them tired, but for me I was more energized. My physiological response to B12 is the same, but to a lesser degree. I'm not in any way equating methylation supplements to marijuana, but that's my own personal experience.

 

[Red04]

Methylation does affect neurotransmitters, but folinic acid, methylfolate, and methylcobalamin (possibly also adb12) all affect CNS and neurotransmitters independent of their role in methylation. Most people who talk about the "brightening" assume that it's always a good thing. I'm not completely sold to be honest. We really don't know the long term ramifications for altering neurotransmitters. Maybe it's better than taking Prozac, but when people are describing a euphoria or rush that's something that might not be able to be sustained on a regular basis. There's nothing wrong with feeling good, but with every high there's a low. That's an eternal law of life. Expect otherwise and prepared to be disappointed. These comments aren't directed at the person who started this thread or anyone else. It's just something for people to consider.

I think this is a little off base from my wife's experience. Her depression/anxiety completely goes away while on the protocol and slowly comes back when she is off. And when it comes back, it's not like it once was, its more mild. It is less severe. There is no dramatic low or high. The supplements seem to have fixed what causes her depression, not covered it up like prozac or anything else. Every indication is that it fixed the problem. She had depression issues for most of her adult life before this. During startup she definitely experienced some highs/lows, but it leveled off after a few months.

I am very wary of all drugs and supplements. I havent been to a doctor myself in 5 years because I don't like them that much. I never fill prescriptions. I don't even like tylenol. NOTHING has ever given me an indication that there is some ramifications from the supplements. Higher dosages produce the same results. Like your body only uses what it needs. It seems if it was altering her body some how the dosage would have an effect. If you take more prozac/tylenol/lyrica/whatever, you get a different effect. Her demand has not gone up or down either. I guess it is possible there are negative things going on, and I would prefer my wife didn't have to take all this stuff, but it works and it is stable and I have had zero indication of an adverse effect from a stable 2+ year remission of CFS/ME/Depression/etc.... The only way it returns is to stop the supplements and the only way it goes away is to take them.

I don't recall others reporting reactions that would equate to permanent damage or altering of neurotransmitters either. I think maybe not taking the supplements is more likely to cause long term damage or an altered state of mind.

 

[caledonia]

Desensitization of the receptors is an artificial condition created by an antidepressant drug. It's like taking a sledge hammer to the receptors.

When you do methylation, you're simply giving your body the nutrients it needs to function properly. If you crank up methylation and thus neurotransmitters, there may be some natural downregulation of receptors by the body, but it's more like lightly tapping around with a pencil.

Red's wife discontinued her supps and her depression came back, albeit milder. When she discontinued, her neurotransmitter production dropped back to a much lower level, so the depression came back. It was milder because she had likely built up some B12 stores, so her body was using those. If she discontinued long term, she would likely go back to where she was, because her methylation cycle is not working without the extra support.

In theory, it is possible to get the methylation cycle working again without support. The fact that it's not, indicates there is still some genetic or environmental problem blocking methylation.

 

[Lotus97]

I don't see any problem with taking an appropriate dose and I realize that for someone who's an undermethylator an appropriate dose might be very high. There are several posts in other threads each made by a different person who gave me the impression that taking too high of a dose might be problematic. I don't know if I can explain myself and I'm not going to try, but I had a good reason for what I said earlier in this thread.