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Stopping Armour - more ill than ever!

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by justy, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. ihave3kids

    ihave3kids

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    I have Paul Robinson's T3 book and have attempted the circadian method. I was taking 15mcg T3 split across 3 doses; the v early am dose (4.30am), then at about midday and late afternoon. I didn't feel much in 15mcg so one morning I upped the early morning dose to 10mcg. I literally shot out of bed at 7am with none of the usual brain dog or drag of fatigue - it felt amazing. That day I took the other two 5mcg doses as usual and went to bed slightly later than my usual 10pm.
    That night my sleep was horrific. I was dreaming the most awful things and waking up every hour or less sweating and in a panic. My adrenalin must have been during off all night or something.
    Anyway, I couldn't take another 10mcg dose because it frightened me too much. That window if wellness that I experienced was amazing though. So this is why I'm trying armour again and not pure T3. Can anyone explain the reaction that I had there though? Was it simply an adrenal thing and does anyone know how to overcome such a problem? Will armour cause the same problem or will it be gentler? Thanks.
     
  2. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Yes that would definitely have been the response to the T3, it sort of shows you do need it I think but the Armour version should be gentler. What you experienced was a surge of adrenaline.

    The problem with the adrenals is that we often cannot make sufficient cortisol when we need it but what you get instead is adrenaline which makes you feel shaky, dizzy, anxious and sweaty and of course insomnia.

    If you want to give the Armour a go you could start at 1/4 grain on waking and if ok another 1/4 grain lunchtime. Stay on that dose for at least 2 weeks if ok before raising to 1/2 grain on waking and lunchtime. Then stay on that dose for maybe 3 weeks before trying 3/4 grain on waking and the same at lunchtime. You should monitor your pulse and temperature to see how you are reacting. If I get too much adrenaline then I also get high bp but I do take low dose betablockers so that if this happens I simply take an extra dose to get it under control. It doesn't happen very often thankfully but I have had this in the past but it is harmless if it just happens now and again.

    If you get sweating or palpitations or feel anxious and have a high pulse then it means your adrenals are too weak for you to be able to tolerate this but by going low and slow you shouldn't get too bad a reaction.

    Cannot remember if you said you had tried Siberian Ginseng because that is an adaptogen that benefits the adrenals. Perhaps you could get started on that first?

    Pam
     
  3. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    I'm sorry to hear you have been feeling worse Justy. My TSH when last tested was 4.57 (if memory serves). I was put on Levothyroxine about 9/10/13. I had some really good hours of energy and mental (clear functioning brain) for about 3 hours (physical) took a 1 hour rest and then do more mental work (worked on a heaping pile of papers on kitchen table) for another 3 hours. Cant say the lasst time I had that many good hours. I have noticed more hours of function on some days but it is not consistent and I dont know if it is just the 'normal' level after a 7 week crash. I have had two bad days, yesterday and today, and I understand the frustration that sets in when you think you maybe getting better then turn around and fell worse. Maddening. I hope you get it figured out. I am very interested in the posters (sorry forgot name and I just read the post :confused:) who described getting much more energy on thyroid meds and steroids. My cheif complain in inconsistent to no energy.

    UPDATE: yep my memory didnt serve :confused: my last TSH was 4.758. I often seem to switch numbers and letters.
     
    justy likes this.
  4. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    What were you taking (brand)?
     
  5. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    WATCH OUT-! High iodine can CAUSE hypothyroid - it did for me! And it took me almost a year to recover fully from it...it made me very sensitive to iodine, which for a year afterward even the tiny amount in a multivitamin would cause me an immediate headache (a PAF headache, which means potential stroke) and I had to take Ginkgold (high dose Ginkgo) to treat the headache (Gingko is anti-PAF and increases brain circulation thereby).

    Unless you eat a low salt diet, if you live in the U.S., the salt is iodized and you get iodine. If you have high blood pressure and must eat low salt, then you should supplement. If you live in another country you will probably know if your government adds iodine to the salt.

    I was trying to figure out why my adrenal problems (which I get during allergy season) go away on their own afterward, and I followed the above link, and I see that I take everything on that list and then some. I never need to take a cortisol test (although I did once) because I have genetic high bp but my bp goes low during allergy season and I suddenly have to eat salt or pass out.

    I would like to mention that I believe tyrosine is used by the adrenal gland too, anyway it is certainly used by the thyroid and my doctor has me taking 1g/day to very good effect (well I take 1-3g/day depending on how much protein I eat...I am not a big protein eater like you paleo folks).

    My thyroid also springs back after allergy season. My blood vessels, which get clogged from cholesterol (happens due to low thyroid) do not, however, spring back very fast and my doctor put me on berberine to treat that.

    I have read that zinc is "like a dial" to turn up the thyroid and so I take it in a larger amount during allergy season and at first it clears up my sinuses, whether because it keeps my thyroid from running out of raw materials or because zinc suppresses IgG (which it does). Eventually I go hypothyroid anyway because I am unwilling to take more than 100mg zinc/day. (I know I need 150mg zinc /day to treat a cold but that lasts only a few days and allergy season is much longer). Generally (not in allergy season) I take 50mg zinc and 2-4mg copper, both picolinate, which has been proven something like 20x more absorbable.

    These are the main things that are needed as raw material by the thyroid: zinc, tyrosine, selenium, iodine, mB12, copper. I recently read a reference to that calcium might be needed but I have not had time to research if that is true and in any event it is the first I heard of such a thing. Also honorable mention is coleus forskohlii which raises cAMP, thus making your cells more receptive to thyroid hormone (and also to other hormones, perhaps adrenal hormones as well). I read that it raises thyroid hormone (but idk if that is true or if they are just dumbing down the text to avoid mention of cyclic AMP).
     
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  6. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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  7. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Here's someone else's list of what it takes to make thyroxine:
    http://naturalthyroidchoices.com/ThyroidNutrients.html
    Thyroid Nutrients

    I am asked on a regular basis. What should I take? These are some of the nutrients I have taken or continue to take on my journey. It is best to have your levels checked by a health care practitioner in order to get the best possible combination of nutrients for your condition.


    Vitamin A- Individuals with low thyroid function (hypothyroidism) have a reduced ability to convert beta-carotene into vitamin A.
    Recommended amount: 25,000 IU

    Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)- Riboflavin is needed for the production of corticosteroids, erythropoesis gluconeogenesis, and thyroid enzyme regulation. Assists with ATP production increasing energy along with organification of Iodine.
    Recommended amount: 100 mgs 2x / day

    Vitamin B3 (Inositol Hexanicotinate)- is needed to increase ATP functionality to help with energy and organification of iodine.
    Recommended amount: 500 mgs 2x / day

    Vitamin C- Assists in the healthy function of the NIS (sodium iodine symporters) which allows the cells to pull iodine into them.
    Recommended amount: 2,000 - 5,000 mgs

    Iodine- Critical building block. Iodine is organified to thyroglobulin to create thyroid hormones (T4 - 4 iodine molecules & T3 - 3 Iodine molecules).
    Recommended amount: 6 - 50 mgs

    L-Tyrosine - This is an amino acid that is used by the thyroid gland. It works with iodine to activate T3 and T4. L-tyrosine attaches itself to iodine atoms to form the active thyroid hormone. Supplementation with L-tyrosine can assist in better sleep and lowered stress. It also aids in the function of the adrenal and pituitary glands.
    Recommended amount: 500 mgs

    Magnesium- Assists in the regulation of thyroid function. Is a good regulator of muscle relaxation. Activates enzymes in the body.
    Recommended amount: 400-500 mgs - Note: A new form of transdermal Magnesium is now available called Ancient Minerals. It can be applied to the skin thus avoiding bowel intolerance and gut absorption issues. Magnesium Oil can be purchased HERE

    Selenium- Assists in the production two enzymes: glutathione peroxidase (reacts with H2O2to reduce H to H2O) and iodothyroinine deiodinase (controls the removal of an iodine molecule to convert from T4 to T3, T3 to T2 and T2 to T1).
    Recommended amount: 200 - 400 mcg

    Zinc- Assists in the conversion of T4 thyroid hormone to the more active T3 form of thyroid hormone. A simple test with liquid zinc can be done to test for deficiency. If you can taste the zinc then you are not deficient. If you taste nothing then you need to supplement.
    Recommended amount: 50 mgs (should be combined with 2 mgs
    Copper as they are antagonists and zinc will lower copper levels)

    For high RT3 issues (reverse T3) this combo works to bring the T3:RT3 ratio back in line.

    Selenium, Zinc, Vit B6 and B12, Iron, Vit D and Iodine: they are all required by the 5-deiodinase enzyme responsible for proper T3 production.


    ** These recommendations are only general guidelines of nutrients. You should try to find a qualified healthcare practitioner who can custom design a protcol that fits your specific needs.

    ----


    So this person lists some extra stuff. You can also check the content of Thyrocsin at iherb, which is meant to be all the raw nutrients needed to produce thyroxine (however the doseage may be insufficient in zinc or tyrosine, and if you have auto immune you should consider taking he max dose of selenium (400mcg).
     
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  8. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    I find that potassium stimulates the release of TRF (which causes release of TSH) and that calcium is required for this.

    Huh! So idk how much real effect this has - it is way upstream. I mean f you are hypo it is DETECTED by high TSH so obviously you must have enough potassium and calcium to create TSH, right?

    But here is something I have been puzzling on for about a year...my brother-in-law is clinically hypothyroid and on meds which he often forgets to take and YET, he is always on the go-go-go, overactive, over-achiever, does more than 3 men per day blah-blah-blah (doesn't it make you jealous? It does me and I cannot figure it out). But one thing I know about him -- he juices every day and his doctor actually told him to lay off the juices because his potassium was too high! (And he said 'har, har, like I would ever do that!'). So maybe the extra potassium helps somehow???

    Yet he DOES have the raised cholesterol that comes from hypothyroid and I persuaded him to take his meds so he can pass his physical and renew his life insurance policy at a reasonable rate (which he cannot do with high cholesterol). He then was able to pass the test.

    But the energy thing...! How can that be when one is hypothyroid_!
     
  9. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Hehe yeah triffid Iodine supplementation is tricky, I decided to lay it off until my adrenals are better. I read about a guy that said he got worse on Iodine because it boosted his thyroid but had adrenal fatigue and that lead him to having bad adrenal symptoms. So he fixed AF and then could tolerate and enjoy the benefits of Iodine.

    The iodine in salt is not good. Indeed, table salt alltogether is poisonous. How do you now it made you hypothyroid? Did you have tests?

    Hmm? Does high zinc supplementation block the IgG responses of food intolerances?

    I juice everyday and I must say it helps with energy, but is not enough. Having restful sleep and a good digestion (which would mean good hormones, high coq10 and stuff) would do far more for my energy.

    It must be because he doesnt have all the other things we have. If someone goes on with his life like he wasnt weak/pained/cognitively impaired I always say he cannot be that sick - and if he is he will eventually crash. I know I have adrenal fatigue, leaky gut and subclincal hypothyroidism, but probably there is more, maybe a a methylation block.
     
  10. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Oh,yes, I had many thyroid tests (and I still have many thyroid tests because it keeps going out during allergy season and this is the source of my sometimes high cholesterol, so of course I need to prove it to the doc. Life Extension are the docs who looked at my labs and told me it was the Iodoral I was taking causing me to be clinically hypothyroid (not just subcliical). I asked them how it could possibly be that I was hypo when I was taking frickin Iodoral and they said that right there is why. So I stopped taking it and in 3 days the hornet's nest buzzing in my brain calmed down to a rumble and then over the space of a year to a tone of tinnitus, which I get whenever my thyroid is not right. Also in 3 days my heart stopped tachycardia and in 3 months or so the dry skin stopped).

    Here is what I have on zinc and IgG:
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/dhn3804v156563r8/

    Biomedical and Life Sciences

    BioMetals

    Volume 22, Number 6 (2009), 1031-1040, DOI: 10.1007/s10534-009-9254-z

    Comparison of inhibitory activities of zinc oxide ultrafine and fine particulates on IgE-induced mast cell activation

    Kouya Yamaki and Shin Yoshino

    Abstract

    The effects of ultrafine and fine particles of zinc oxide (ZnO) on IgE-dependent mast cell activation were investigated. The rat mast cell line RBL2H3 sensitized with monoclonal anti-ovalbumin (OVA) IgE was challenged with OVA in the presence or absence of ZnO particles and zinc sulfate (ZnSO4). Degranulation of RBL2H3 was examined by the release of β-hexosaminidase. To understand the mechanisms responsible for regulating mast cell functions, the effects of ZnO particles on the levels of intracellular Zn2+, Ca2+, phosphorylated-Akt, and global tyrosine phosphorylation were also measured. IgE-induced release of β-hexosaminidase was obviously attenuated by ultrafine ZnO particles and ZnSO4, whereas it was very weakly inhibited by fine ZnO particles. The intracellular Zn2+ concentration was higher in the cells incubated with ultrafine ZnO particles than in those with fine ZnO particles. Consistent with inhibitory effect on release of β-hexosaminidase, ultrafine ZnO particles and ZnSO4, but not fine ZnO particle, strongly attenuated the IgE-mediated increase of phosphorylated-Akt and tyrosine phosphorylations of 100 and 70 kDa proteins in RBL2H3 cells. These findings indicate that ultrafine ZnO particles, with a small diameter and a large total surface area/mass, could release Zn2+ easily and increase intracellular Zn2+ concentration efficiently, thus decreasing FcεRI-mediated mast cell degranulation through inhibitions of PI3K and protein tyrosine kinase activation. Exposure to ZnO particles might affect immune responses, especially in allergic diseases.

    ------

    However I can tell you that in my 40's I first became aware that I had leaky gut issues via discovering that severe depression and joint pain were linked to wheat consumption / allergy (I actually knew I was allergic to wheat but had never noticed symptoms before). Anyway, I avoided wheat for 2 years following a celiac diet and found it (1) made me so hypoglycemic that even a walk between 2 buildings at work would cause me a low blood sugar attack and (2) it made me hyper sensitive to even the tiniest shred of wheat. I decided that having severe low blood sugar attacks everytime I turn around was very hard on my internal organs and it would e better to eat wheat, get re-sensitized to it. So I decided that I had leaky gut and that it was undigested wheat being absorbed through larger than normal intestinal pores that caused the problem. In fact I know I had low HCL.. So in investigating another way to deal with it I had the idea that since zinc was reported to "close the holes in the nose through which cold germs enter" it could also make the pores on any skin smaller - and intestines are skin. In fact blood vessels are skin and zinc is linked to lower risk of macular degeneration from leaky blood vessels (I asked my eye doctor and her said it is true). So there is a lot of basis for this. I looked online at the time (long time ago) and after a LOT of search I found 2 studies confirming it would help with leaky gut. So I started taking high dose zinc and it took care of my wheat allergy. However - be careful - you need copper too! So idk but I don't think copper is used up in such a way and although I high dose zinc and I also high dose copper, yet I do not maintain the zinc:copper ratio that would call for a SUPER high dose of copper. This is my GUESS. To figure out how much copper to take with extra zinc is up to you.

    So I take 100mg zinc picolinate and 4mg copper picolinate during allergy season or for low HCL (zinc is needed to make HCL) otherwise I take 50mg zinc and 2-4mg copper. 4mg copper is a high dose and it has been proven to help post menopausal women gain bone mass. Now I can tolerate wheat just fine unless I get run down (don't eat healthy - as in enough zinc-foods), or during allergy season when zinc is used up.
     
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  11. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Ahhhh yes zinc have been shown as a corrective/preventive nutrient for leaky gut in some studies and case reports. The most effective form for that is zinc carnosine, which I am about to start taking.
     
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  12. ihave3kids

    ihave3kids

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    Sorry have missed a few responses to this thread. Thank you Pam for your advice on Armour dosing. I'm going to give it a go again soon and will post to let people know how I'm doing. Here we go again!!
     
  13. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Yes, I
    gave my Dad zinc carnosine and it restored his eyesight enough to pass his driver's test (after he had failed it). He had stomach problems and was hypo due to being put on a low protein diet for kidney disease and also being put on an aspirin a day for heart

    For myself I take zinc picolinate because it was proven to be MUCH more effective and I have to take such a lot of zinc I thought I could lower the dose if I took a more absorbable form:

    Agents and Actions June 1987, Volume 21, Issue 1-2, pp 223-228

    Comparative absorption of zinc picolinate, zinc citrate and zinc gluconate in humans

    The comparative absorption of zinc after oral administration of three different complexed forms was studied in 15 healthy human volunteers in a double-blind four-period crossover trial. The individuals were randomly divided into four groups. Each group rotated for four week periods through a random sequence of oral supplementation including: zinc picolinate, zinc citrate, and zinc gluconate (equivalent to 50 mg elemental zinc per day) and placebo. Zinc was measured in hair, urine, erythrocyte and serum before and after each period. At the end of four weeks hair, urine and erythrocyte zinc levels rose significantly (p<0.005, p<0.001, and p<0.001) during zinc picolinate administration. There was no significant change in any of these parameters from zinc gluconate, zinc citrate or placebo administration. There was a small, insignificant rise in serum zinc during zinc picolinate, zinc citrate and placebo supplementation. The results of this study suggest that zinc absorption in humans can be improved by complexing zinc with picolinic acid.

    ---
    I really can't find a comparison btwn zinc carnosine and zinc picolinate, however since I take it fr allergies, I use picolinate. My Dad did well on the carnosine form

    -----
    I had a few likes on this so I thought I'd give a bit more info. My Dad was Stage 4 kidney disease and 88 yo, so fragile. So we did nothing aggressive. After trying all the ocular formulas (which feature forms of vitamin A and astazanthin) with no success, I noted that none ofthem contained zinc, and protein is the main source of zinc in the American diet. My Dad was put on a low protein diet w/o being told to supplement zinc (which IMHO is criminal). The RDA of zinc is 15mg/day. So I got him zinc carnosine containing 18mg zinc and it took 2 months to restore his eyesight o this low dose improvement (nothing fast at such a low dose but it worked for a frail old guy over time)
     
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  14. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Just wondering how things are going for you? Have you started back on the Armour? I have had my adrebnal results back and am having a phone appt with Dr Myhill in a couple of weeks to see what she thinks of it all (i suspect she can take a broader view than Dr S)

    Take care,
    Justy x
     
  15. mermaid

    mermaid Senior Member

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    Just wondering how your adrenal appointment went Justy with Dr Myhill? How were your results?

    Mine had improved this year from last year, mostly, though one was slightly down, and another was a false reading I think, so still not clear really but they are not bad, and so probably OK to support the T3 I am taking. Actually I am slightly improved if anything so I must be doing the right thing. But we are all at different stages......
     
  16. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    mermaid i'm just waiting for my appt with Dr M now. Adrenal rssults showed normal morning cortisol, then it plummets at mid day to very low, then comes back up a bit in the afternoon into normal range and then goes low again in the evening. My DHEA is low on both samples (very low) Because of the cortisol swinging around it comes out as normal overall - but the lunchtime crash down is quite extreme (and i do feel awful at this time of day) My DHEA to Cortisol ratio is very low as well - am waiting now to see if Dr M thinks this could have caused my problems with Armour (also didnt respond to levo 3 years ago)

    I'm glad to hear you are doing better overall!

    Take care,
    Justyx
     
  17. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Hi

    I tried to treat my thyroid a few years back with Naturethroid , supporting my adrenals with pregnenolone but had to back off with T3 only then had to stop that as I my TSH was so low and my adrenals were stressed.

    Recently, my hypo symptoms have got worse due to eating seaweed while deficient in selenium apparently, (Hashis worsening) and I tested with 5mcg of T3. It showed that I need to take thyroid hormones again. I have thyroid test done tomorrow TSH, free T3 & T4 and I asked for antibodies though I don't know if they will actually do that for me.

    I have found that sugar and caffeine have an extreme negative effect on my adrenals so I am hoping that my diet is better for them than last time. I also see now that I took too much Naturethroid in the past so this time I am going to space out the T3 in small amounts, within the range tolerated by my adrenals. If this does not work then I am going to have to take HC probably for life and I am not sure what this will do to my Lyme infection. I have avoided taking HC up to now out of fear and hope that I could fix it another way.

    So when my selenium comes from http://immunova.co.uk/index.html and my blood goes off tomorrow, I will make a start. I read somewhere a while back that Russians have found excellent ways of improving the adrenals through herbs. I never got very far in researching it but will have another look.

    Treating thyroid and adrenals, finding out whether I need to take copper and reduce iron with lactoferrin, while continuing an active b multi, which is going well quarter of a capsule every 4 days, are my prioroities having at last got a healing diet sorted out - apart from the seaweed :)
     
  18. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    brenda
    hi there - just wondering which oral bcomplex you're having success with. I know I desperately need them but can't tolerate the ones I have.
    I've just got a transdermal one from Australia to try but can't afford it long term, just wanted to see what effect it had on me. After 2 days I had noticeably a little more energy..... hope I haven't jinxed it now!!!!
     
  19. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    maryb

    I am taking Douglas Labs B-Complex with Instrinsic Factor L-methylfolate, Metafolin 400 mcg, mb12 500 mcg per capsule. I had to start with an insane low dose but made the mistake of taking it every day. So I backed off to every 5 days and now can increase it every dose which I am thrilled about and up to a quarter every 4 days. I did not do the CBS protocol re Yasko but have been on a drastically altered diet for 6 months. My histamine levels seem to be reducing which I think is due to copper being converted better. Giving up chocolate, small amounts of coffee, dairy, eggs, nightshade veggies reducing meat,have been instrumental I think. It will be interesting to see how my adrenals cope this time.
     
  20. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Have just found a list of rife frequencies for endocrine system so am giving that a go.
     

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