Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Firestormm, May 21, 2013.
Curious what "acetycholine agonist" is.
An agonist is a chemical that binds to some receptor of a cell and triggers a response by that cell. Agonists often mimic the action of a naturally occurring substance. Whereas an agonist causes an action, an antagonist blocks the action of the agonist and an inverse agonist causes an action opposite to that of the agonist.
Nicotine via acetylcholine also stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system (which seems to be out of whack in ME/CFS likely explaining dysautonomia) and in doing so also attenuates pro-inflammatory cytokines :
http://www.utdallas.edu/~mxa049000/lessons/research/IL-6 literature/may 2012/Borovikova Tracey VNS inf resp Nature 2000.pdf
Acetylcholine is released by the nerves vagus to decrease/stop the pro-inflammatory response.
Mug of decent coffee in the morning, and one around sunset.
Tried Ritalin and dexamphetamine years back. Moderate effect, but paid for it afterwards. Could be useful in small amounts, occasionally.
Too much of a stimulent and it's even harder to sleep at night of course! I do try and stop the nicotine several hours before bed - but sometimes that book (insert preference) is too good to put down
A friend gave me some left over Dexadrine and Adderol to try... I have been doing 5mg to 10 a day.... and I am shocked at how good it makes me feel... I have avoided these things for fear they are SPEED ... as my doc says...but maybe there has been some damage to my brain and it needs some stimulation...! The Dexa give me a nice energy, mental clarity, sense of humor back, and I say "yes" to going out to lunch occasionally or what ever instead of always NO... It is as if the breaker of my brain gets flipped into the off position and the Dex flips the breaker... I don't want to be doing long term damage to my adrenals or anything in this process tho... Thought I would ck in with you all and get your thoughts on the brain stimulants... and I too am Java lover... or iced tea...
Eggplant and zucchini are also nicotinic acetylcholinergic agonists. If you have n/acetylcholine issues you could try taking lots of those, maybe make a concentrated broth. It could even boost your white count, too, if it's low.
Caffeine is definitely a double-edged sword. I get a boost even from a few sips to half a cup of green tea, but then pay for it the next day or two. Got to think any kind of stimulant is generally going to be a bad idea in the long run if you have adrenal/HPAA issues, but it's a cost/reward analysis I guess everyone has to determine for themselves.
I think Myhill used to claim caffeine boosts an enzyme that helps recycle AMP -> ATP, but I don't know if that's true or if she still stands by that.
the big thing that stimulants can help with is dopamine. Low dopamine can be responsible for pain, lethargy etc etc and alot of symptoms associated with cfs/me.
I read the following in an email post by Bette Dowdell:
"Contrary to popular opinion, caffeine doesn’t work as a stimulant. Instead, it outmaneuvers a natural, sedating chemical in our bodies, adenosine. Adenosine tamps down brain activity against overstimulation. It accumulates through the day, finally sending us stumbling off to bed at night.
Caffeine looks a whole lot like adenosine–chemically speaking–and uses that similarity to counteract adenosine’s effects by temporarily blocking some of adenosine’s receptors.
Caffeine can’t get into the receptor and take over. It just plops itself down on receptors like a Jabba-the-Hut lid and keeps adenosine out. With adenosine in check, metabolism perks up and drowsiness doesn’t take over.
And when caffeine’s work is done–in about 45 minutes or so–the cell is again available for adenosine.
Is this amazing or what?
There’s talk that adenosine levels increase via the toxins we encounter, poor diet, etc. Nothing’s etched in stone yet, but that would explain a lot of what coffee accomplishes (which I’ll write about next week). "
I thought it was interesting because caffeine definitely makes me feel better and my adenosine was high on the methylation panel.
I like this message!
Super interesting, Ema!
I have heard of people eventually crashing hard after using stims, but i dont really know how they were uesed. I assume using them daily would lead to crashes, worsening adrenal fatigue etc but it seems many use them intermittently with no issues. Used for big occassions or to get to the end of the working week maybe or just need to get in and clean that dam house. Maybe followed by a day of resting in front of the TV is a good plan too.
I also wonder if meds like modafinil which are supposedly different to other stims have less issues with possible crashes and adrenal fatigue. I know there is some research saying modafinil is neuroprotective, not sure if thats the case with other stims like dex??
Isn't adenosine the 'A' in ATP?
The only stimulant I have is the very occassional quarter to half of a cup of weak coffee (probably last time I had that was 6 weeks ago). A quarter of a cup of coffee can make me a lot more alert and awake if Im struggling with the sleepy kind of tiredness but really need to do something (I cant have more then that as coffee makes me ill).
Using stimulates in my case I think would be disasterous.
There is a further (of course) cautionary note with perhaps over-stimulating (and over-stimulation of course depends on your current state of health and how you react on a personal level to the particular stimulant of choice). And that is that a stimulant can entice you to 'do more' to 'get excited' to even engage in 'hyperactivity' e.g. go completely loopy
Not something any of us should be tempted to engage in - well not more than once I suppose. You soon learn your limits. Caffeine and Nicotine aren't for everyone and not all of the time.
Yes.. too much of any stimulant not only may make someone over excert and hence then P.E.N.E but also may make a person feel wired. I find feeling wired very unpleasant.. feeling wired will end up often making me over do, it will also cause my thinking to be everywhere (racing thoughts where I cant think straight due to too much racing thoughts, make my focus even worst then it normally is), it will cause me insomina as I'll then end up with that dreaded "wired but tired" thing where you cant sleep no matter how tired you are (and hence make me worst the next day). Being wired for me is a bit like having bipolar (im so over the place when Im wired).. going "loopy" is a good word for it. I can get off my face from getting too wired.
For me the positive allosteric a7nAchR modulator I use decreased the wired but tired problem.
It almost never happens anymore.
Well...rather than take any chances I am gonna go and consult with Dr. Madill up in N. California and see what he has to say about treating the brain... And Heaps I am tryin to do exactly what you said... only take it on days I HAVE to be productive. Two days ago I actually went to a funeral and then went to lunch with family after...and stayed up all day...but was WIPED the next day... Was that from the drug or just because my body was not used to so much activity... Oddly enuf I have noticed it does have a blunting effect on my pain level too...
After reading Betrayal of the Brain...I am convinced that damage to the Limbic system of the Brain...is responsible for so many of our wonky symptoms... Just finding what to do about it is the Bagillion dollar question... I am gonna try to schedule an appt soon...wish I could take you ALL with me!!! hugs
Jacque, hard to know if its med specifically or the extra activity u have done. Always wise to plug in a rest day after a big day. Could try it on a day u aren't as active and see how u feel the day after.
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