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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
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Statins for CFS?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Chris, May 24, 2011.

  1. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Hi, all; I was going to post on this, but Dr. T. has beaten me to it, so here is the website on which he discusses this findingthat statins may be a very useful method of virus control, despite the general feeling that they are probably counterindicated for CFS because they do damage mitochondria.

    http://www.endfatigue.com/health_ar...w_treatment_for_chronic_fatigue_syndrome.html

    I am intrigued, because I have resumed very low dose statin use (Lipitor, 10 mg every second day) for a couple of months now, and am improving. But my experience should be interpreted in the light of the facts that I have also been taking AHCC and a highly bioavailable form of Curcumin (AOR) and intermittent Artesunate; as always, I dont know what has been doing what. My latest cholesterol reading was very low indeed ( 112 total, 59 LD, 39 HD), and I have been on a very low fat basically vegetarian diet for quite some time. I took low dose statins for a few years until about 2 1/2 years ago, when I realized I had CFS, and then stopped. My cholesterol used to be pretty good on low dose statin with a more mixed dietaround 150-160 totalbut has never been this low before.

    I think the theory is worth checking outyou will find it on Dr. T.s email newsletter, and doubtless now on his website. I would be very interested in any relevant experience others may have had or are now having, particularly the recommendation for Pregnenalone, which is not available in Canada.
    Best, Chris
     
  2. SpecialK82

    SpecialK82 Senior Member

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    Wow, bombshell. Dr. T put out a teaser a couple weeks ago, promising new tests and possible inexpensive treatment. I'm looking forward to hearing more.

    I know the FFC have been recommending pregnenalone for quite some time, I did not take it though when they suggested it as I worried about side-effects. My cholesterol has been going up for the past couple years, so I guess I am mismatched, high cholesterol - low pregnenalone.
     
  3. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    That's really interesting. My cholesterol is very low and has been for a long time. Never taken statins. I've printed off that link to have a proper read of.

    Thank you Chris.
     
  4. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    Be careful, a low cholesterol reading increases the risk of stroke, depression, anxiety, etc.
    All the steroid hormones, (testosterone, DHEA, etc) are all made from cholesterol, so you might want to keep an eye on that too.

    http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/dec2004_ch_01.htm
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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  6. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Hi; Heapsreal--thanks for the suggestion of no-fluch Niacin; I am familiar with it, but there are quite a few studies suggesting it just does not work, and in any case I am not taking a statin primarily to lower cholesterol (I think my diet has done most of the heavy lifting there) but to inhibit viral replication, and I don't know of any work suggesting that niacin does that--though maybe it does!

    And Rwac, according to my diet and coronary artery disease gurus, Colin Campbell, Dean Ornish, and Caldwell Esselstyn, my new cholesterol figures are about in the middle of the range typical of Chinese peasants--and they tend not to have chronic diseases, and I would suspect are not especially subject to depression, anxiety, etc. I suspect there is a difference between a low cholesterol caused by high statin dosing, and one caused mainly by diet and just given a final push down by a bit of statin. At least that is what I am thinking/ hoping, and I have not experienced any unusual anxiety or depression recently. And no strokes! (yet....)
    Best, Chris
     
  7. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    Btw, a couple of other things which reduce cholesterol are Magnesium and Tocotrienols.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15466951
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12656204

    Well, I doubt that Chinese Peasants can afford to get sick. How would you expect them to get diagnosed with any sort of chronic illness ?

    There a good rebuttal of the China Study here: http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/03/the-china-study-a-formal-analysis-and-response/

    I have learned that following a philosophy blindly, whether paleo or raw vegan, is a bad idea. Since you are not as healthy as the "typical Chinese peasant" perhaps a little caution is in order. Maybe get your hormone levels measured too.
     
  8. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    Just a word of warning here. I was given Lipitor as my cholesterol was very high, but within a few days I experienced a severe relapse of my muscle problems. I stopped Lipitor, and, after taking three months to recover, I started it again and triggered yet another relapse. I then started Dr Sinatra's protocol using very high doses of CoQ10 and carnatine and within a few weeks I recovered to my usual level. I gather statins block CoQ10, and the muscle failure I experienced with Lipitor exactly resembled that I had with ME.

    I will never take statins again.

    C.G.
     
  9. Desdinova

    Desdinova Senior Member

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    Very good information to know Countrygirl. Muscle problems as a result of taking Statins seems to be a dirty little secret that the medical world likes to downplay or avoid talking about. Just as they like to tell patients that it's rare. Strange that I've heard so many complain about it.

    My father took Statins and would have to stop taking them because of the muscle problems. Then start taking them again because of his high cholesterol. Near the end of his life he had to take time released Niacin when he was off of the Statins.
     
  10. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Thanks RWC,

    I was also interested to read that XMRV uses cholesterol in it's envelope (?) so doubly confused about the whole thing. My DHEA, cortisol are low. A high protein diet doesn't seem to make a difference but I make sure I use good oils.

    Luckily I don't have anxiety or depression but strokes do run in my family.

    What a puzzle.
     
  11. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Hi, all; I agree that the whole thing is a puzzle, and I have never been happy taking statins, which I have been doing off and one for 5 years now. But I have always taken Q10 along with them, and have never had any trouble (have always kept to a low dose), liver enzymes, muscle pain, etc.--none of them. So I figure I may have more to gain than to lose, but time will tell--or not. There is some accummulating evidence that taking Lipitor on alternative days has some advantages--most of the benefits of daily use, fewer side effects--it is known to be metabolized very slowly, and maybe with daily dosing there is a build up of metabolites that does more damage, while aternative day dosing minimizes it.

    Rwac, I do know the RawFoods blog--she is smart and interesting, but I do not follow Campbell blindly--I am just very impressed by the guy, who is now just one year younger than I am, and has been studying nutrtion and diet for over 40 years full-time. He has an enormous knowledge and a good brain, and his stuff is being put to good work by docs like Ornish, Esselstyn, McDougall, and others--Esselstyn's results with extreme cardiac patients are extraordinary, and Ornish has now shown that prostate cancer can be partially rolled back (see his "Spectrum".) McDougall is currently running a trial of this kind of diet for MS in conjunction with a major western university.
    Best, Chris
     
  12. rwac

    rwac Senior Member

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    ukxmrv

    Some pregnenolone might useful because it converts to cortisol/DHEA/testosterone and the rest of the steroid hormones.
     
  13. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Any of us with known mitochondrial disease or any that suspect it should take extrem care with statins. Most mitochondrial disease patients are already have very low levels of CoQ-10 and taking statins reduces those levels with devastating effect. I took a statins for high cholesterol back in 2006 and was bed ridden for a 3 month period while I was on them, at the time I thought it was another crash. In hindsite now it was the first true sign of my mito problems. Be very, very careful with high doses of anything off label untested, makes perfect sense Dr T is behind this crazy trial, he's more dangerous than doing nothing.
     
  14. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    More...

    Hi, all; I appreciate your concern over this idea, but as I tried to make clear, I am not taking my mini dose of Lipitor because of Dr. TI was going to post on this imminently, but he beat me to the punch. My decision was triggered by the same essay that he saw, and I have now been taking it for a couple of months or so, and so far the results seem good rather than bad. You dont have to love Dr. T, but dont blame him for my decision.

    I have been doing a bit more research, and as you might expect the picture is not very clear: there is, for instance, a paper by by Chung, Atorvastatin [Lipitor] does not exhibit antiviral activity against HCV at conventional doses: a pilot clinical trial -April 2007; PMID: 17393518. Not encouraging.

    But there is another paper, by Kato, Different anti-HCV profiles of statins and their potential for combination therapy with interferon July 2006, PMID: 16799963that suggests that Atorvastatin and Simvastatin exhibit good viral inhibition, and that Pravastatin does not exhibit any. That interests me a lot, and here is why.

    I had heart surgery for a stenotic aortic valve and one 75% blocked cardiac artery in Sept. 2004, unexpected after 71 very active and healthy years. Made a good recovery and was put on 20 mg Lipitor and other stuff. In a few months I was back walking uphill, cycling, etc. Probably cut my Lipitor to 10 mg but kept it going till late 2005, when I quit. Soon after I had an episode of chest pain, raised BP, and for the first time premature ventricular beats. Went back on Lipitor and symptoms quieted down over the next few months. August 2006 moved from Montreal to Victoriadrove across with a friend; when here, biked, walked miles, kayaked a bitfit and healthy. My new doc suggested I quit Lipitor, and I was happy to agree. After a fluey bug in Nov, came down in early December with chest pain, raised BP, etc. stopped Lipitor for 4 weeks because my doc wanted assurance I was not suffering statin myopathy before referring me to a cardiologist; I did not improve. Saw a cardio, went back on Lipitor, improved, won back most of my energy only to switch to Pravastatin and then slowly lose it again. Eventually I realized that I had CFS.

    So there is a story here; I assume as a working hypothesis that I had a reactivation of some bugEB? XMRV picked up by transfusion during surgery? that Lipitor helped keep under control. Statins also help balance the autonomic nervous system towards parasympathetic tone.

    So I have a history that supports the hypothesis that Lipitor (but not so well Pravastatin) help me in various ways; I dont know how much this is due to viral inhibition and how much to autonomic nervous modulation. I have been slow to really see and act on this pattern, partly because I can tell this story in several waysthe pattern I lay out here is just one option, so to speak. But I was triggered into giving it another try by that essay, and I will keep going for a while unless some untoward event cuts the experiment short.

    As I said, I am also taking AHCC (Klimas approved immune modulator) and intermittent Artesunate. I dont know which is doing what, but my impression is that the statin may be helping along with the others. And I would rather take low dose Lipitor than AZT.

    So I think with Dr. T. that there may be an interesting possibility here. Not pushing it at anyone, just putting it out there.
    Best wishes, Chris
     
  15. Nielk

    Nielk

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    I was told the same thing that a very low cholesterol reading is not healthy especially for the brain. The brain need cholesterol to function properly.
     
  16. lobba123

    lobba123 Senior Member

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    another probelm is that trial made with statins showed no correlation between cholesterol level in the serum and antiviral effect (hcv trial with statin alone or statin+interferon)

    researchers guess that statins make a change in ldl composition that cannot be used by the viruses anymore and also that the eefect of a statin s different from another

    at the moment i am trying red yeast rice monacolins which is lovastatin but i am not sure if this helps

    as to low cholesterol and health problems one thing is having low cholesterol naturally and another thing is lowering cholesterol by drugs.studies found that only having low cholesterol naturally is linked with severe diseases because the missing cholesterol in the serum is due to the severe disease

    at this point the problem is there is a little mess but as a general finding simvastatin seems to work on almost all viruses while other statins look working less or none
     
  17. lobba123

    lobba123 Senior Member

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    a low cholesterol by drugs to 70mg/dl or less is perfectly healthy and you dont have to worry about health problems the body needs 25mg/dl cholesterol to function

    while if you have very low cholesterol naturally you must be very worried because there must be a very severe disease doing it, often it is a cancer or end stage liver disease
     
  18. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    rwac

    Thank you I'll take a look at that. In the UK so would need to buy privately though.
     
  19. WestOzGirl

    WestOzGirl

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    Before taking statins I would look into plant saponins and plant sterols. They are natures statins and have also been shown also inhibit viruses. Psyllium husks are another natural cholesterol lowing agent.
     
    peggy-sue likes this.
  20. Chris

    Chris Senior Member

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    Hi, WestOzGirl, what is your source for saying that saponins and sterols inhibit viruses? I would certainly prefer taking them to taking Lipitor if they do the same job. Thanks, Chris
     

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