1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 2 of 2)
Andrew Gladman explores the current and historic hypotheses relating to nitric oxide problems in ME/CFS. This second article in a 2-Part series puts nitric oxide under the microscope and explores what it is, what it does and why it is so frequently discussed in the world of ME/CFS....
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Starting RichVank's Protocol on Deplin?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Vanguard, Aug 26, 2011.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    738
    Hi, Vanguard.

    The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to lift the partial methylation cycle block, which will cause glutathione to come up, unless there is some other factor holding it down, such as heavy metal toxicity or a well-entrenched infection. When glutathione comes up, the hypothalamus and pituitary should be able to secrete ADH normally, and the diabetes insipidus will go away. Desmopressin has helped some people on a temporary basis, but it is very important to monitor electrolytes while on it, because sodium levels can become abnormal. Florinef by itself doesn't work very well. Some people have reported temporary benefit from it when combined with salt. I am not big on the use of drugs for chronic conditions. It's better, in my opinion, to correct the root of the problem, rather than using drugs to treat symptoms, and enduring all the downsides that come with use of foreign substances in the body.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  2. Vanguard

    Vanguard

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    2
    Ok thanks Rich. I didn't realize that restoring the methylation cycle could actually allow the hpa axis to improve itself and improve other hormones, etc. If it does that's wonderful.
  3. Vanguard

    Vanguard

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    2
    If there is say a viral infection that is blocking the glutathione from rising, wouldn't it be useful to use antivirals while doing the protocol? I know you said you prefer not to use drugs like that but I'm trying to figure out how to life the block if something is holding it down and the protocol doesn't suffice.

    Thanks
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    738
    Hi, Vanguard.

    Yes, I believe that antiviral treatment may be necessary to knock out an entrenched viral infection. The idea would be to use it for a limited time, rather than chronically. It's the chronic use of drugs that only address symptoms, and that in addition bring side effects, that I have a problem with.

    Some people have tried to do antiviral treatment together with the methylation treatment, but have not been able to tolerate them together. I think it's better to do one, and then the other, and I don't know which order is better. Some of the people who have done the best on the methylation treatment reported that they had done antiviral treatment prior to methylation treatment. There is also an argument that doing the methylation treatment first will strengthen the immune system, so that it will be in better condition to take over protection against viral infections after the antiviral has knocked them down. I don't have enough information to say which approach is likely to be better.

    Rich
  5. Vanguard

    Vanguard

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    2
    Rich - I know you're a busy man. These responses are much appreciated.

    I'm still confused about two things. First, I'm confused as to if Deplin covers the Folinic Acid as well as MethylMate B pieces of the protocol, since I know it already covers folinic acid and I don't currently have the methylmate B.

    Also I'm using Methyl-B12 as many are. On your revised protocol it says to use Hydroxy B-12. I know you've answered this a million times but it seems many use Methyl B12, yet your protocol says Hydroxy so I was confused. I'm sure this explanation would be long and I know there are different opinions I'm just wondering if I should stay on methyl-b12 ( I guess brand matters too).

    Lastly, Is it true that I should avoid undenatured whey while using this stuff as it can hold the block down?

    Thanks
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    946
    Likes:
    91
    Rich

    The question of which order to do treatments in has vexed me for some time. Amy Yasko's protocol calls for methylation first, antivirals last. I did some kind of methylation support for 4 yrs, and during that time my abysmally low NKC activity levels went from bad to really bad.

    So in my case, I don't think that order of txtments worked.... but I suspect I have a huge viral load & huge toxin level cos I have been sick 16 years.

    It might be different for someone who just got sick....althought if MIkovits et al are right about XMRV/MULVs then perhaps they have to be addressed first before we can make any headway with any other therapy.
  7. davidrpharmboy

    davidrpharmboy

    Messages:
    1
    Likes:
    0
    Metanx/Deplin/B12

    Vangaurd-

    based on the three pages of thread I have read, have you heard of Metanx? I understand that Deplin was recommended for gene mutation for MTHFR, but for the B12 issue and the SAMe, Metanx (Pamlab Pharmaceuticals also manufactures Deplin) would seem to address more of the concern for B12 and proper L-methylfolate. Deplin has 7.5 or 15mg of just L-methylfolate where as Metanx has 3mg of L-methylfolate/2mg methylcobalamin/ 35mg pyridoxal 5' phosphate. This combination is indicated for DPN. Please visit the Metanx website for more information. Hope this helps. A
  8. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    738
    Hi, davidpharmboy.

    Some people with ME/CFS are also using Pamlab's CerefolinNAC which contains methylfolate, methylcobalamin and N-acetylcysteine. If you go to CureTogether.com, you can see that it has a pretty good rating by people with this disorder:

    http://curetogether.com/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/treatments/

    I added Metanx to the rating list quite a while ago, but nobody has rated it.

    The methylation treatments in general (such as the simplified protocol) are running higher than CerefolinNAC on the ratings. I think the dosages in these "medical foods" are not chosen to match what is optimum for treating ME/CFS, but CerefolinNAC, at least, is being found helpful by quite a few.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    738
    Hi, aquariusgirl.

    I'm beginning to agree with this. Viruses and toxins seem to be big impediments to getting glutathione up to normal in some cases. It may make sense to address them first, or at least to address them after doing methylation for a while. I think there is some advantage to having the methylation up a little before addressing them, because the detox system and immune system should then be better able to help. I agree that this is a vexing question. It may be necessary to lift the load at several points at once to pull a person out of this.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    738
    Hi, Vanguard.

    Deplin contains methylfolate, as does MethylMate B, Metafolin, and FolaPro.

    Deplin does not contain folinic acid. I recommend taking it in addition to methylfolate, because it can help with the other folate roles until the methionine synthase reaction gets going faster and converts methylfolate to tetrahydrofolate, which can be used for other purposes. Freddd does not recommend using folinic acid. I suspect that he has an inherited deficiency in the MTHFS enzyme, which is only one that can convert folinic acid so that it can be used.

    See another post I made today on a different thread for a discussion of choosing between hydroxo and methyl B12.

    Some people do well on whey protein, while others do not. I favor the truly nondenatured whey protein products, such as those from WellWisdom and Source Naturals, rather than the "undenatured" whey protein isolates, because the former contain cysteine in the unoxidized state, which is better absorbed by the liver for making glutathione. Also, they contain lactoferrin and immunoglobulins, which are destroyed in the cheesemaking process, from which the isolates are byproducts.

    If you take whey protein, which will build glutathione, it is necessary to make sure that your B-complex vitamins status is adequate, so that your cells will be able to recycle the glutathione when it becomes oxidized in dealing with the oxidative stress. Otherwise, it could make the redox conditions more oxidizing.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  11. Vanguard

    Vanguard

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    2
    Thanks for all of your answers Rich.

    I completely forgot to mention that I do have a homozygous mutation of the MTHFR gene. I read somewhere that if someone has a mutation like this that the simplified protocol wont work. Is this true? If anyone has any clue I'd appreciate it.

    Thanks
  12. Vanguard

    Vanguard

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    2
    Oops I meant heterozygous, and it's for the A1298c and C677t genes
  13. Vanguard

    Vanguard

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    2
    Ok so I got some lab results back saying that my B12 is high and my folic acid is high, so now I'm really confused.

    Can someone tell me if I can have these high results but should still do one of the protocols to raise possible low glutathione? Should I do Freddd's since I have a gene mutation in those two genes mentioned above?

    Thanks

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page