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Starting herbal antibiotics for chlamydia pneumoniae

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by helen1, Feb 2, 2015.

  1. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I started this protocol a few days ago for c.pneu in lower amounts than listed. Have been feeling okay so far.

    Buhner herbal chlamydophila pneumonia protocol. Submitted by sphinx on the cpn forum. Followed Dec. 2013 till June 2014 (6 months) and is now cpn free Oct. 2014. This was after having done antibiotics for years which he had to stop due to gut issues. He feels that this herbal protocol got him to the last stage of recovery from c.pneumonia:

    If it is in the CNS these 3 are added to the other herbs mentioned below:
    Cordyceps - 2000 mg 3x daily
    Scullcap (Chinese/baical) root tincture - 1/4 tsp 3x daily
    Lion´s mane tincture - 1/4 tsp 3x daily

    If the cpn infection is respiratory:
    Any of the berberine-containing plants (coptis, barberry,goldenseal, mahonia)- crucial - 1/4 tsp 3x daily
    Cryptolepis, alchornea or sida acuta (same dosage as above)
    Bidens pilosa (same dosage) - fairly important
    Reishi - 45 drops 3x daily
    Licorice - 20 drops 3x daily
    Pleurisy root - 30 drops 3x daily

    You can mix all the herbal tinctures together. You can repeat the process again if it doesn’t clear in 30 days. You can take the mix up to six months, except as Buhner cautions probably not licorice root which should only be taken for short periods.
    www.woodlandessence.com has many of the herbs.

    To counter die-off:

    Ginger tea or juice - taken every 2-3 hours (thumb-sized piece of ginger grated or juiced & steeped in boiling water for 2-3 hrs)
    Isatis - 20 drops x3

    Support:
    A full range of vitamins and minerals, as well as:
    Quercetin - 500 mg *an efflux pump inhibitor and cytokine inhibitor in macrophages
    Vitamin C - 2g x2 *depleted by c.pneu *antioxidant *repairs damaged endothelia
    GLA (evening primrose oil) - *may repair endotoxin damage, as it improves peripheral neuropathy, at least in cell culture and animal models. Peripheral neuropathy is seen in severe C pneumonia infection and appears caused by endotoxins, at least in animal models.
    NAC - *the usually limiting factor in glutathione synthesis
    Vit D - 2000-5000 iu
    Niacin - *depleted by c.pneu *also counters endotoxins according to Wheldon *caution though as niacin reduces methylation

    Betulin also appears to be able to target c.pneumonia. Betulin is found in chaga mushrooms (but only those that have been processed by both hot water and ethanol), lotus rhizome node and ligustrum seed. I think I may add chaga.

    Note: Vitamin C is needed in the synthesis of collagen, which is a component of arterial walls, tendons, ligaments and bronchioles. Persistent infection with Chlamydia pneumoniae damages arterial and bronchial walls. Vitamin C can be helpful to mitigate this damage. Vitamin C also has the capacity to regenerate other antioxidants such as vitamin E .

    Tryptophan promotes c.pneumonia. Avoid substances that increase tryptophan or serotonin such as 5HTP and SSRIs.

    Does anyone see any possible problems or omissions in this protocol? Are there other herbs or supports that could be helpful in a cpn protocol? Has anyone tried this?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
  2. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    "If it is in the CNS these 3 are added to the other herbs mentioned below":

    I am sorry @helen1 - could you just precise which are the other herbs...(Cordyceps, Skullcap and lion's mane are prescribed for CNS symptoms), I don't see...It isn't Reishi/Licorice/Pleuricy root (for respiratory issues), is it ?
     
  3. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @Hanna 'the other herbs mentioned below' are these:
    If the cpn infection is respiratory:
    Any of the berberine-containing plants (coptis, barberry,goldenseal, mahonia)- crucial - 1/4 tsp 3x daily
    Cryptolepis, alchornea or sida acuta (same dosage as above)
    Bidens pilosa (same dosage) - fairly important
    Reishi - 45 drops 3x daily
    Licorice - 20 drops 3x daily
    Pleurisy root - 30 drops 3x daily
     
    Hanna likes this.
  4. Viking

    Viking

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    Even hebal antibiotics can disrupt healthy intestinal bacteria. I dont have any direct familiaraity with the ones you are using, but i have seen it happen with other antimicrobial herbals. Please check to see if that is common with the ones you are using. Perhaps look into probitoics or probiotic rich foods to keep replacing the beneficial bacteria.
     
    Rlman, Gondwanaland and helen1 like this.
  5. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Thanks @Viking. I'll look into that. I had read that oil of oregano can wipe out gut bacteria but wasn't sure about these.
     
  6. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @helen1 Buhner's new book on CPN and Babesia is due out this month. It can be pre ordered on Amazon. I am on some of the ones in the Buhner CPN protocol. I also have Babesia and several of the herbs in babesia protocol overlap with the CPN protocol. I'm introducing one tincture at a time.
     
    Hanna and helen1 like this.
  7. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @juniemarie. Thanks! I didn't know he had one coming out devoted to those two bugs, that's great I'll definitely order it. I'm just finishing highlighting to bits his 2nd edition of Herbal antibiotics which I very highly recommend.

    How are you doing on your one at a time protocol? What are you using for die-off support?

    Edit: Just went and had a look on amazon and Buhner's new book actually is about babesia, ehrlichia, and anaplasma but nothing about cpn.
     
  8. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Here's what Buhner says about how herbal antibiotics affect the gut:

    Herbs are not nearly so hard on the GI tract as pharmaceuticals. The primary exception is grapefruit seed extract. However, some herbs in large doses can upset the ecological balance in the GI tract, though, again, not nearly so much as pharmaceuticals.

    Cryptolepis may do so and I generally take probiotics separately from that herb. I do not think it a severe problem however and am not deeply worried about it. If you wish you can separate that herb from the probiotics, the others are fine along with it. Garlic and thyme should not prove a problem at all.
     
  9. Viking

    Viking

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    Hopefully they will not be as hard on the gut as the ones I was on years ago. Mine were mostly antiparasitic but had antibiotic effects as well. You can of course keep an eye out for any obvious signs of yeast overgrowth. ( coated tongue, athletes foot, toenail fungus, onset of food allergies or other intestinal issues )
    Best of luck with your plan. :)
     
  10. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Thanks @Viking. I'd really love to get rid of this cpn. It has such damaging effects in the body.
     
  11. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Having researched a bit more, some of the items in my cpn protocol turn out to be anti-candidal:

    1. the berberine-containing herbs (coptis, barberry, goldenseal/oregon grape, mahonia); these have more effect in the GI tract than anywhere else; note that isolated extracts of berberine are less effective against candidas than whole plant extracts; note too that these plants are not very water soluble, so need to use alcohol extracts

    2. reishi

    3. cryptolepsis

    Unfortunately, isatis does appear to kill beneficial gut bacteria, so will reduce the amount and length of time i use that one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2015
    Gondwanaland likes this.
  12. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    I have tried most of the herbs but not together as part of a structured protocol.
    I'm a bit perplexed because the herbs for the CNS are helpful in contrasting symptoms but have no antibacterial action that I know and they had none on me anyhow.

    The only herbs that have some action in that respect are crypto, alcho, sida, bidens and berberines. The first three I tried but in my case they did not seem to do much. However, crypto and goldenseal are probably the most effective combo I ever tried for most kinds of gut related issues (e.g. food poisoning).
    However if you're looking for something other to add to the protocol you may want to have a look at this as an effective antibacterial. In my case it worked better than any herb and even some of the abx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothiocyanite
    Best wishes.
     
  13. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @xrunner I haven't heard of hypothiocyanite but it sounds interesting. It says on that link it's patented. Is it by prescription? What benefits have you noticed? Do you know of others who have benefitted?
    Not sure what you meant by 'helpful in contrasting symptoms'...?
     
  14. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Hi @helen1,
    regarding the CNS symptoms I meant that those herbs can help by reducing for e.g. neuropathic pain but are also supposed to protect nerve cells from further damage and possibly repair damage. Where I am not sure is whether they can take out the bugs that cause the damage but I'm not enough of an expert here.

    As for hypothiocyanite I know only two main sources, one is sauerkraut (though in a form that needs to be activated by the body) and the other is sold under brand names 1st Line and Kib500 without prescription. In terms of benefits it helped me improve further overall after abx and Gcmaf (which had already helped me considerably) seemed to have exhausted their contribution. Apart from that it's worked well in our enlarged family especially for respiratory infections, some quite severe.
    I must add that I don't know whether it is effective in vivo specifically against CPn. I also don't know for sure why it helped me so i.e. against which infection.
    It may be that it worked against CPn or against Borrelia (but it's not supposed to) or another unknown infection I carry.
    I just mentioned it because it works a bit like a gunshot taking our many diverse pathogens, bacteria, viruses and some candida strains and that can be helpful in reducing the load on the immune system. But it's by no means effective against everything, for e.g. it didn't work against H Pylori or Streptococcus pyogenes or the flu.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2015
  15. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @xrunner
    As far as whether or not the herbs and mushrooms can take out c.pn, I'm not sure either. I'm trying this on the strength of Buhner's book Herbal Antibiotics as well as cpnhelp member sphinx's success with the herbs and also the success of some folks on the Buhner's treating lyme facebook group (I dont appear to have Lyme but am following that group a bit out of interest in their experiences with the herbs Buhner recommends).

    And as a way of doing something that doesn't involve abx that might have an effect.

    But yes, I'm especially wondering how these herbs could kill the intracellular stage of the c.pn. There are a few traits in the herbs that might be useful in that regard:

    Sida interferes with bacterial DNA (intercallates DNA), the berberines and licorice root are efflux pump inhibitors, cryptolepsis decreases gram negative bacteria of which c.pn is one, astragalus and beta glucans are TH1 stimulators (forgot to add those to my list). Plus I'm on LDN, another TH1 stimulator.

    Maybe all these will together will have some beneficial effect. I think I felt some die-off today after increasing my dosages significantly. Felt pretty lousy in any case especially my mood but as I'm not familiar with how die-off feels I don't know if that's what it is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
  16. Rlman

    Rlman Senior Member

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    on cpnhelp.org Dylan used Essential Oils to treat CPn and got way better. Also then added Cannabis Oil and got even more results I believe. He hasn't updated in a while though.
     
  17. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @Rlman Yes! I've also added Dylan's items to my protocol. The CBT oil is great for sleep issues I'm finding. And it appears to cause die-off or porphyria (cold shivers, sick feeling, nausea). I too wonder how Dylan's doing. I intend to try this for another 2 months then do another test for c.pneumonia.

    Are you treating c.pn yourself?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  18. Rlman

    Rlman Senior Member

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    @helen1 No I am not treating Cpn, don't know if that is an issue with me. Enemas are great for lessening die off symptoms. Dylan made a post on a PR essential oil thread a few years back. Good Luck!
     
  19. Rvanson

    Rvanson Senior Member

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