Starting Freddd's protocol - a few questions

[whodathunkit]

@Kitsune, my general rule was extra fatigue, especially if accompanied by muscle weakness and shakiness/heart palps, was potassium. Everything else I always tried to address with mB12 and methylfolate first.

I never worried about ratios of these two..since these are B vitamins and thus water-soluble I'm not entirely sure we need to worry that much about ratios, except that we need enough of both (enough of all the B's, really). But particularly that methylfolate needs enough mB12 to help it work. When speaking of ratios, it seems that not having enough mB12 can be really bad and precipitate symptoms, but having a small amount of methylfolate in relation to the amount of mB12 is not really problematic. That doesn't mean you may not need more methylfolate than you're currently taking...I'm only talking here about the two in relation to each other, not the doses necessary to stave off symptoms. And I may be wrong about ratios, so you should research that a bit to decide what you think is right. But that was my experience, and nothing I've read leads me to believe there is a definitive ratio. I saw a lot of speculation but nothing more. Doesn't mean there isn't a ratio, but I never did see it. Does that make sense?

There are also other things involved that can help alleviate symptoms, such as other B's, different forms of the B's, zinc, magnesium, etc. But when first addressing problems on Freddd's protocol, trying potassium and upping methylfolate and/or mB12 were always my initial strategies. If those didn't work I'd go from there.

Again, HTH.

P.S. I agree with you about taking the supps. I can definitely think of stuff that sucks worse than taking all the supps every day. Top of my list is feeling how I felt on this day in 2009 (for example).

 

[PatJ]

I guess I'll be OK with keeping a bottle of 200mg potassium tablets around for when I need them?

I recommend keeping a couple of bottles, just in case your potassium need suddenly increases. When I was able to drive I kept a bottle in my vehicle just in case I was delayed. I needed to take potassium every couple of hours. I also relied on potassium gluconate powder because I needed 3.5 grams per day and the powder was the least expensive and easiest way to take that much.

I just hope I can learn to recognise deficiency symptoms for this and differentiate them from deficiency symptoms for other things, like the methylfolate.

Here are a few lists from Freddd. The grouping of items is for easier readability.

Folate deficiency or insufficiency symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal
Stomach ache
Uneasy digestive tract
increased hypersensitive responses

Skin rashes
Increased acne
Skin peeling around fingernails
Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips
Angular Cheilitis

Canker sores
Coated tongue
Runny nose
Increased allergies
Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities
Increased asthma

Rapidly increasing generalized inflammation in body
Increased Inflammation pain in
* muscles
* joints
Achy muscles

Flu like symptoms
Depression
Less sociable
Impaired planning and logic
Brain fog

Low energy
Lightheadedness
Sluggishness
Forgetfulness
Confusion

Difficulty walking
Behavioral disorders
Dementia
Reduced sense of taste
Increased irritability

Loss of reflexes
Fevers
Old symptoms returning
Heart palpitations
Bleeding easily


Hypokalemia Symptoms
IBS – Steady constipation
Nausea
Vomiting
Paralyzed Ileum
Hard knots of muscle

Sudden muscle spasms when
* relaxed
* stretching
* kneeling
* reaching
* turning upper body to side

Tightening of muscles (esp. neck muscles)
Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias)
Increased pulse rate
Increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability
dermal or sub-dermal Itching

(if not treated) potentially paralysis and death


Both Hypokalemia and Folate Deficiency or Insufficiency
* IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation
* IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


Either or Both Hypokalemia and Folate Deficiency or Insufficiency
* Headache
* Increased malaise
* Fatigue

 

[whodathunkit]

Oh, yeah, forgot to say I had a lot of bowel issues (mostly D but a bit of alternating D with C) when starting Freddd's protocol. Took them a long time to even out and I'm still not entirely happy with the state of things. But my guts been a mess for a long time and I"m still working on it via methylation and gut therapy. I'll get there. At any rate, it's better out than in, and it's always mostly out, so that's something.

 

[Kitsune]

@whodathunk it, yes, those low potassium symptoms are similar to what I had. It felt very much like hypoglycemia, which I knew it couldn't be because I'd had a good healthy meal not long before. I will be able to identify that pretty well in future.

Thanks for your thoughts about adB12. I'll relax and just see what happens when I start it. I've never taken it before - or methylfolate, for that matter, which I just started today, so this is all new and interesting.

Do you take a magnesium supplement? I've never had to worry about constipation while on that, and it's also really good for easing anxiety. I've found that psyllium husk helps when things go the opposite way. I know these don't get at potential root causes, such as gut dysbiosis, but while we're treating those it can still be nice to keep the symptoms from being too troublesome

 

[Kitsune]

@PatJ, thanks for your post. I've come across that list but found it rather unwieldy, encompassing so many things. Finding out what specific symptoms some others have had here, while beginning to experience a few myself, is helping. And I can see how having a lot of potassium on hand could be quite important, especially if you're taking a lot - and 3.5g is a lot! I'll make sure I get another jar tomorrow. Carrying some around with me won't be a problem, because I already carry a stash of supplements for various exigencies. I take so much vitamin C, I've been wondering if I should fill out one of those medi-emergency cards and keep it in my handbag, since if I suddenly stopped (i.e. was taken to hospital for some reason) I would get rebound scurvy. This is serious stuff we're doing to ourselves; looking forward to the day when a little C will be all I need to keep healthy.

 

[PatJ]

I've been wondering if I should fill out one of those medi-emergency cards and keep it in my handbag, since if I suddenly stopped (i.e. was taken to hospital for some reason) I would get rebound scurvy.

That would be a good idea if your potassium demand increases. If you were unconscious and started having low-potassium muscle convulsions (I've had these) I don't know if a doctor would connect them with low potassium without a blood test. An emergency card could be useful to speak for you and let a doctor know about the potential for rebound scurvy and low potassium. It would be important to note on the card that the low potassium could repeat regularly every few hours due to the B12 treatment so you should be monitored.

looking forward to the day when a little C will be all I need to keep healthy.

And some fresh air and sunshine.

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac, thanks for the info, particularly regarding liquid carnitine. Sounds like you've come a long way in just over two months. No major negative reactions to working at that pace?

No @Kitsune, but I have tried the Freddd Protocol (FP) before, & crashed & burned badly. The main problem was LCF, which gave me huge meltdowns that lasted many days. (A few people get this.)

The second problem was not ramping up the folate et al: my gains simply evaporated over time.

Now rectified, as described. This time there have been no setbacks at all; when my fatigue starts to return, I up the dose.

 

[Kitsune]

Hm, I'm finding that eating a meal, particularly lunch and dinner, causes me some mild palpitations, which wasn't happening before. I'm thinking I'll have to take a bit of potassium throughout the day, if that's what it is; I've been having my banana with breakfast, and I took 400mg of potassium when I got palpitations after lunch today. Getting them again with dinner.

I felt like I had more energy this morning, but was dragging in the afternoon, which maybe suggests that it would be a good idea to take methylfolate with lunch, as well as breakfast and dinner? I'm taking 400mcg twice a day so far, and I'm at 2000mcg meB12 and 1000mcg adB12. Much of this supplementation is quite new, and I know it will need time to settle, but it gets a little scary when my symptoms change or get worse. I know I will have to be patient and not go too quickly.

Am I OK to carry on in this thread, or will it be better if I post elsewhere with questions as I go along?

 

[Kitsune]

@PatJ - that's a good idea. I think I should carry info about potassium as well as vitamin C; it's looking like it will be important for me to supplement with it.

@Johnmac - That's great news, glad you persevered and tried for a second time and are feeling the benefits. So LCF didn't work for you? I was just wondering when I should try it myself.

 

[Johnmac]

@PatJ - that's a good idea. I think I should carry info about potassium as well as vitamin C; it's looking like it will be important for me to supplement with it.

@Johnmac - That's great news, glad you persevered and tried for a second time and are feeling the benefits. So LCF didn't work for you? I was just wondering when I should try it myself.

I believe LCF works for most people, but for a minority it causes anxiety & worse. So Fred suggested liquid carnitine, starting very low & slowly titrating up. That's been fine.

 

[Irwin]

I'll use this topic to make a question: following Freddd's protocol, do I need to use both Jarrow Formulas Methyl B12 and Enzymatic Therapy 1mg B12 infusion? I can't see the reason to use both, I think I'm confusing some things.

I'll order the suplements, but I won't use Jarrow's B-right (I'll buy Nature Made Bcomplex)
The only cofactor I won't use is vitamin E. Is this so important?

 

[PatJ]

You only need one brand of methylB12. Enzymatic Therapy is generally considered top quality and more effective than most other brands. Jarrow B12 went "bad"/ineffective a few years ago. I don't know how it rates now.

Vitamin E may be an important co-factor but I think it depends on each individual. I couldn't take it because it gave me bloody stool. I probably get enough from the whole grains and nuts that I eat.

 

[Irwin]

Ok, many thanks! I use olive oil in my salad every day, also eat tomatoes and some nuts. I think i'm Ok about vitamin E.
About the mb12, I'll try Jarrow's brand, it's more affordable.

I'll order Solgar's Metafolin, but I have Jarrow's quatrefolic here. I'll use the quatrefolic till I finish the bottle. I'm pretty sure I'll feel the differences when I switch to Metafolin.

 

[Kitsune]

Still having these palpitations. I'm only taking 2000mcg meB12, and started on 1000mcg adB12 yesterday, so I wouldn't have thought I'd have a huge need for potassium yet. Will take it at regular intervals today, anyway, to see if the palpitations go away (I know my other electrolytes should be OK, as I have been supplementing those for years). I still don't know if low potassium is the cause, but it won't do any harm to assume so and see.

Added in edit I'm taking a B-complex recommended by Freddd, Pure Encapsulations, that doesn't have much B2 or B6, as apparently they can cause potassium depletion. After doing a bit more research, it looks to me like the high thiamin (100mg) in this B-multi can also cause this problem too. I found a post by @ahmo that recommended Swanson's Activated B-Complex, with lower doses, and have put that on order. Maybe it will help. I don't think it will do me any harm, and I have been thinking anyway that 100mg of various B-vitamins is more than I want to take. (Not that I'm averse to it; I took 500mg a day of pantothenic acid for a few years to try to help with my adrenal problems, but it didn't seem to make a difference.)

Added in edit I'm going around in circles with this all day. The problem could even be one of my new supplements, like the vitamin E (the Now brand I've seen recommended here). Will have to do some detective work.

 

[PatJ]

About the mb12, I'll try Jarrow's brand, it's more affordable.

Unless Jarrow is effective again then you'd be better off with Country Life. It's not quite as good as Enzymatic Therapy but it works and may be comparable in price to Jarrow. You might also want to try a bottle of Enzymatic Therapy to see if there's a noticeable difference in effectiveness vs other brands.

I'll order Solgar's Metafolin, but I have Jarrow's quatrefolic here. I'll use the quatrefolic till I finish the bottle. I'm pretty sure I'll feel the differences when I switch to Metafolin.

I've used both Quatrefolic and Metafolin and didn't notice much difference between the two.

 

[Kitsune]

Absolutely nothing seemed to help with the palpitations. I just want to add that they've been mild, so I don't think I'm in any trouble, and it also seems to be one of my most common symptoms when anything is wrong, so I'm used to it. But I did want to try to work out what was causing them.

I decided to try taking another 1000mcg of meB12 at about 4pm today. After about 20 minutes my heart finally settled, though I feel a little buzzed/wired (not too bad). I didn't think it was wise to take B12 at this time of day. Also, I'm trying to take my time with this process. I only increased from 1000mcg to 2000mcg a couple of days ago, but actually felt a little worse for it. Still, I wouldn't have chosen to increase again so quickly. It's kind of confusing . . .

 

[PatJ]

I still don't know if low potassium is the cause, but it won't do any harm to assume so and see.

If you get diarrhea or feel nauseous after taking potassium then you've probably taken too much. If I try a little potassium gluconate powder on my tongue and it tastes sweet then I really need it. Other times I might have rapid muscle twitching in my legs which is a sign I need more potassium, even though it doesn't taste sweet at that time. Body signals require some time to learn and read.

After doing a bit more research, it looks to me like the high thiamin (100mg) in this B-multi can also cause this problem too.

Freddd's recommendation used to be to avoid more than 20mg of B1, B2, and B3 but there is probably variation based on individuals. Nature Made is a B complex that Freddd used to recommend. I used to take 1/2 a tablet per day when I was on the treatment. You can also use Source Naturals sublingual B vitamins which can be purchased individually and then split to adjust your dose of each vitamin.

 

[PatJ]

I decided to try taking another 1000mcg of meB12 at about 4pm today. After about 20 minutes my heart finally settled, though I feel a little buzzed/wired (not too bad).

Maybe the palpitations are a signal that your body is liking the B12 and wants more. A trial for a few days at that dose should let you know if the wired feeling will fade as part of adjusting to the B12. You could try splitting doses into smaller, more frequent amounts if the wired feeling persists. Some people find that B12 later in the day, or even before bed helps with sleep, others have insomnia.

 

[Kitsune]

If you get diarrhea or feel nauseous after taking potassium then you've probably taken too much . . . Body signals require some time to learn and read.

Thank you. Sounds similar to vitamin C. I had brain fog and fatigue along with the palpitations, and electrolyte imbalance seemed the obvious thing - potassium being the go-to supplement, since I'm just starting methylation. But you're right, this is going to take some getting used to, and it seems clear now that low potassium isn't my problem at the moment.

Thanks also for the B-complex recommendations. I was trying to search the forum for brands, but find the search engine frustrating at times. Even though I put "B-complex" in quotation marks, it was looking for words with 'B' in them!

Maybe the palpitations are a signal that your body is liking the B12 and wants more. A trial for a few days at that dose should let you know if the wired feeling will fade as part of adjusting to the B12. You could try splitting doses into smaller, more frequent amounts if the wired feeling persists. Some people find that B12 later in the day, or even before bed helps with sleep, others have insomnia.

It is a relief to hear this, thank you. I wonder if the fact that I just started taking methylfolate also increased my need for B12. I do know that Freddd suggests we try to take all our B12 before 10am, which is why I was worried. I'll see what effect the 4pm dose has on my sleep tonight. I actually have a body clock problem that causes me to get sleepy in the evening and wake up with my heart racing at 3 or 4am, which I control at the moment by getting up at 3am every night to take melatonin; it seems to shift my circadian rhythm back to normal for a day. Maybe the timing as well as the amount of B12 that I take will have an effect on this (I hope).

 

[PatJ]

I was trying to search the forum for brands, but find the search engine frustrating at times.

Try the Google Site Search instead. The results are usually much more appropriate for the search term, but it doesn't include PR blogs or user profiles.

I wonder if the fact that I just started taking methylfolate also increased my need for B12.

Maybe. It's hard to know unless you take a single supplement for a week, then introduce another and see what effects arise. When multiple supplements are introduced at one time it becomes more complicated.

wake up with my heart racing at 3 or 4am,

That might be a blood sugar drop causing an adrenalin rush. I wake up at 3-3:30 am every day because my blood sugar starts to drop at that time. I have to eat by around 4 am or I start to feel dizzy, hot, shaky, and confused. Then I need to eat roughly every two hours to keep my blood sugar up through the day. I go to bed at 7 pm to compensate for getting up so early.

Have you tried eating a small protein and fat meal just before bed to see if you sleep longer?