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Starting Fredd Protocol Questions.

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Ema, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Hello - I am trying to figure out a plan for Freddd's methylation protocol but still have a few questions. I am re-posting this in hopes of getting Freddd's comments after previously posting in the General section.

    So far I am taking:

    Jarrow B-Right, 1x/day
    Jarrow Methyl B12 lozenge, 1x/day held under tongue for 45-60 min
    Active Folate, 800 mcg
    Country Life Dibencozide with Folic Acid

    I bought these prior to learning that the folic acid may be an issue and would really like to use them rather than buying new if at all possible. I can switch over to the ones without folic acid when I re-purchase unless this is a huge issue (in which case, I will not use them at all). But I do not understand the problem with the folic acid or how to determine if I am one that has a problem with folic acid. I have been having what I have been attributing to start up reactions with the methyl B12 in particular but am unclear if this represents an issue with the folic acid or not.

    How much I should aim for of each of the supps? Is it different for everyone? How does one know when it is time to try an increase? What order should they be increased? Any help figuring target dosages would be greatly appreciated.

    Can the sublingual mB12 and adB12 lozenges be taken at the same time?

    I have been doing these three for about 2 weeks and I am starting to feel worse...intensification of symptoms (fatigue, nausea, blurry vision, headaches, anxiety) which did lead me to abandon the protocol about this same time last year. This time I am more determined to make it through the start up but am worried.

    I am also taking an antihistamine (Zyrtec) due to high whole blood histamine levels. Has anyone found this to be a helpful approach to managing histamine levels possibly increased by B vits?

    Finally, is there a place where the protocol is very concisely laid out that I could print to take to my doctor? I know that she will be interested and want to learn.

    Thanks very much for the help and my apologies for all the questions!
    Ema
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Emma,

    of symptoms (fatigue, nausea, blurry vision, headaches, anxiety

    Sounds like low potassium. Take about 500mg of potassium with a large glass of water on an empty stomach if avialalble else it takes longer. If it is low potassium you should feel a lot better within 30 minutes.
     
  3. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I actually already take slow release potassium (60mEQ) because of the Florinef wasting potassium. I am due for a new CMP next week but do you still think it could be low potassium given that amount of supplementation?

    Did you have any other thoughts on my other questions? I have been reading through the threads and stickies but haven't yet been able to find the answers as to the theory and dosages?

    I'm also very curious as to whether the b12s can be taken together or if the keyhole is the same regardless of form.

    Thanks for your help! It is much appreciated. Ema
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ema,

    If you are taking sublingual methylb12 and adenosylb12 then they can be taken together ansd there is no keyhole.


    The symptoms sound like low potassium but could aslo be low folate. You might want to try about 8000mcg of Metafolin but NOT folinic acid or folic acid. They could be causing such a folate deficiency. What exactly is in the "active folate"?

    Also, what about sores at the corners of the mouth, acne, IBS, other skin problemsd, increase in asthma and/or allergies?
     
  5. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    The active folate contains 800 mcg of folate from calcium L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate only. I have been taking one a day. I have been taking the Jarrow B Right though and I know it has a small amount of folic acid.

    Since I wrote this post, I switched over to the Source Naturals adB12 so that is one less source of folic acid than before. My plan is to switch to the Douglas brand of B Complex when the B Right is gone (unless your advice is to do so sooner).

    I asked my doctor to prescribe the 7.5 mg Deplin. Is there a problem with replacing the active folate with the Deplin right away? Is there an issue with taking so much less of the b12s and proportionally so much more of the active folate?

    How much of the mB12 am I aiming for eventually? After I have had the lozenge in my mouth for approx 60 minutes, I start to feel dizzy with a bit of a heavy headache feeling of pressure. It eases off over the next hour or so and I usually wind up tired but feeling a little edgy. My eyes also tend to get a little blurry and it feels like it takes more effort to focus.

    I read some threads about taking the adB12 that indicated that half of the Source Naturals 8.5 mg tablet was sufficient daily but then some other threads seemed to indicate larger doses were needed for healing. I'm so confused about all these dosages!

    I don't have any sores at the corners of my mouth though I did get an acne breakout this week under my mouth which is unusual. My eyes feel itchier and drier than normal. I don't have asthma or IBS (though I do not seem to absorb supplements well and need larger than expected doses of things like Vitamin D and Florinef to get a typical effect). I would guess that my intestinal flora is not optimal due to the antibiotics I take for the Lyme infection though I do take large doses of VSL probiotics.

    The Zyrtec seems to help with the itchy eyes and heavy head feeling. I am reactive to paints and other sorts of chemical fumes or smoke but not as much as in years past. Do the Bs increase histamine? If so, how do people manage that problem?

    I will get the CMP next Weds so can see whether or not my potassium has dropped. Usually it runs around 4.0-4.1 even with the 60 mEQ of KDur. My doctor doesn't really want me to go above 80 mEQ of KDur so am I only left with cutting Florinef (to stop wasting so much potassium) as an option?

    I have adrenal insufficiency as well as hypothyroid and Lyme. I've been a little concerned about methylation picking up and suddenly my steroid dose and T3 dose being way too much. Do you know others that have dealt with these issues alongside of the methylation protocol?

    Thanks again for your help! Ema
     
  6. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Ema, I get the same symptoms as you. Seems I need to take massive amounts of potassium, about 1200mg, plus a banana.

    I also get diarrhea, and after increasing my methylfolate dose to 1600mg, I have flu-like symptoms and massive fatigue. I'm guessing it's a herxheimer reaction.

    Like you I get 200mg folic acid from the country life adb12, and my thorne b complex has 200mg folinic acid.

    EDIT: just took my pulse, and it was 50, so maybe I'm taking too much potassium. I'm gonna reduce to 800mg per day. I feel it's very difficult to evaluate exactly how much I need. It feels like my electrolyte levels are fluctuating.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    I handle the potassium level by taking not quite enough on a regular daily basis then taking an extra 300-600mg when I feel my tipoff almost spasms starting, then continue it a few days. I know that it doesn't build up fast because of the bufferrring of the body just as the body doesn't drop fast either compared to the serum. So I just try to keep the serum level fluctuating between not quite enough on an everyday basis and a little too much daily. I do succeeed in keeping it fairly steady on the average and rarely have any outright spasms any more, maybe once each 3-4 weeks currently.
     
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Emma,

    A small amount, whatever that means, doesn't block but it does build up. The b-right could be used up by taking 1 each 3 days and using a different one the other days.

    I currently appear to be staying out of paradoxical folate deficiency by taking 3200mcg with each meal (2 per day) and a total of 12,800mcg per day. When I take 1600mcg or 2400mcg with each meal and the same daily total, I go into deficiency within a few days. I foumnd the same method worked with a limited amount of folic acid, compete at absorbtion time.


    I asked my doctor to prescribe the 7.5 mg Deplin. Is there a problem with replacing the active folate with the Deplin right away? Is there an issue with taking so much less of the b12s and proportionally so much more of the active folate?

    In my opinion, that is not a problem. It could work a lot better.

    Do the Bs increase histamine?

    Folate deficiency increases allergic reactions. Metafolin decreases such reactions. Mb12 reduces such reactions. Metafolin and mb12 tend to reduce the body's over reaction and hair trigger responses calming everything down.
     
  9. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Thanks, Freddd. I appreciate your commitment to help.
     
  10. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    adreno said: Ema, I get the same symptoms as you. Seems I need to take massive amounts of potassium, about 1200mg, plus a banana.

    ---

    I do not consider that a "massive" amount of potassium. Charles Weber, who wrote a book on potassium says we need 5g/day due to the body losing it easily. If you look it up you will see it's very HARD to get that amount of potassium daily and most Americans are probably at least somewhat deficient. HAINES II study showed that the top 5 sources of potassium in the American diet are poor choices (such as COFFEE!). Adele Davis write way back in the 60's that a low blood sugar attack (which you get frequently if you have adrenal issues) causes a loss of so much potassium that it would take 6 bananas to replace it! Since a banana has about 330mg potassium (or less) you lose about 2g of potassium just from a low blood sugar attack. I have known about this all my life as a lifelong hypoglycemia sufferer and I have always treated by replacing the potassium.

    However you do need to be careful as too much potassium can stop your heart.

    Ryrda
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    However you do need to be careful as too much potassium can stop your heart.

    So can too little. Both too much and too little can cause extreme spasms. Too little can cause paralysis via inablity to contract a muscle, too much by inability to stop contracting a muscle.
     
  12. Pea

    Pea Senior Member

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    How do you know what the right amount of Potasium is - just by how you feel?? This is rather scary.
     
  13. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    By how you feel and your potassium reading on your CBC, but most importantly by keeping in mind the scale...so long time ago I used to be scared to take 100mg potassium...now I know 100mg is NOTHING. You should look on the web for the potassium values of common foods you eat and figure out how much you get a day. If you get 3,500mg / day, you probably have elbow room to supplement w/o too much concern.

    If you have kidney trouble or juice raw veggies you may have high potassium and may not be able to or need to supplement AT ALL.
     
  14. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    And yet, Freddd mentioned in another post that I made that you can't go by the blood tests for potassium at all so there seems to be a lot of mixed messages that concern me. How does one tell if their potassium is low or not if you can't go by the CMP (comprehensive metabolic panel) on a blood test? You mentioned going by the CBC but that's the complete blood count and as far as I can tell my CBC only has the White & red count as well as platelets, differential for types of white & red cells, and I think the size (mcv). To be honest, I'm confused, too.

    It must be hard to have to rehash this stuff for all of the newbies like myself that come along over & over again all the time. It would be great to have a place to see typical dosing & brand recommendations for these things, the caveat being implicitly understood that it will also vary for everyone to some degree & you can't know exactly for each person but even established guidelines & guestimates would be great! Is there a way to see the average recommended doses for the things that must come up over & over like the active version of folate, adenosyl, methyl, potassium, etc?

    I'm willing to revisit methyl B12 again as well but can't afford to make too many harsh trial & errors with a little girl who depends on me for her Yasko protocol stuff.

    Thanks,

    Angela
     
  15. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Freddd has created a sticky named "Active B12 Protocol Basics". You should be able to find the answers to most questions there.

    I've found after a few weeks on the protocol, that I get better at fine tuning the amounts of potassium I need. But really you need to go by how you feel. I realize that's hard when you're treating someone else than yourself. One way to handle it is to calculate the exact amount of potassium she eats in foods, and then supplement up to the recommend level. For adults, it's 4700mg per day, I'm not aware of the level for children.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Angela,

    I find nothing wrong with serum potassium tests except that by the time you get the results it can be way way too late. Also, they can go up or down a lot in a day or 3. There is a home test kit that uses a spot of blood so you can check it often. It took me some time but I learned the feeling of low potassium and start heading it off before outright spasms. It takes some practice but once you feel things that are relieved by potassium you know them again when they are starting up. I would imagine she will too. I have to say I feel a bit better keeping it a little higher than just above the point of spasm.
     
  17. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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  18. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I think this is a VERY good answer. But I also think you need to keep track of the value on your CBC. If you have kidney trouble (which shows up on a CBC under creatinine and GFR) or if your potassium level runs close to 5.0, I would not supplement potassium. People with kidney trouble are usually told by their doctors to avoid potassium due to inability to excrete it. I think there has to be a way to measure it daily. We need to take the guesswork out of something that changes as frequently and rapidly as blood sugar. I dont care what Freddd seems to think, potassium levels bounce around like ping pong balls. All it takes is low blood sugar, and you with adrenal problems know how often that happens, and potassium levels drop. I am no authority, I just know how easy it is to lose a chunk of it suddenly.
     
  19. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    If you have a heavy period, potassium is critical.
     
  20. maddietod

    maddietod Senior Member

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    In July my serum potassium measured 3.7 (ref 3.5-5.2), and in August my urine potassium measured 65 (ref 22-82). I was not supplementing.

    I am about to add the active B12s to my protocol. I have potassium on hand.

    Is there a baseline amount of potassium I probably need even before adding the B12s?

    Madie
     

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