Phoenix Rising: The Gift That Keeps on Giving All Year Long
This holiday season Jody Smith turns her eyes to the people of Phoenix Rising and gives thanks for you all ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Started taking B6 and feeling funny. Help Please. :(

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by boo85, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

    Messages:
    178
    Likes:
    40
    @caledonia

    Last night, in addition to my new routine of 400mcg methylfolate and 250mcg B12, I also took 120mg of B6 (I am taking it for feminine problems.)

    Soon after, when lying in bed, I started feeling really agitated and spacey and I was having trouble focusing and seeing - like there was a bit of a fog in the room. So I got up and took about 125mg of Niacin (B3), which has worked well in the past to calm myself from overmethylation. I was able to fall asleep, but only with the light left on, and I woke up disorientated at one point.

    Then this morning I took 400mcg methylfolate, 250mcg B12 and another 120 mg of B6. This was only half the tablet of B6. Luckily I divided it in half. That was less than an hour ago and I suddenly felt quite panicky, like something bad was going to happen. Wired but tired. Feel like I want to sleep, but don't want to be too still. No nausea or anything.

    I made up a drink with a few pinches of potassium salt and pink salt, stirred it into hot water and drunk that. I'm feeling a bit better now. And the anxiety has lessened a bit but it's still here.

    I also feel a bit unstable, like my balance is off and I can't type properly.

    Has this happened to anyone else? What should I do? Should I try taking B3 (niacin)? Does niacin have any effect on too much B6? Why does B6 cause anxiety? Is it safe to work myself up to a bigger dose if I start small, at say, 20mg per day for a while?

    I've already read through this thread - http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/vitamin-b6-safe-dosage.32797/
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2014
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes:
    1,172
    Ventura, CA
    You don't need more then 10mg a day at most unless you have pyroluria, also switch it out for p5p. I would cease the b 6 supplement for now, purchase p5p and keep doses lower 10mg>. pyrodoxine toxicity has been reported in moderate doses for certain people. p 5 p has much less reports of toxicity but also should not need to exceed above 10mg a day. Just really no benefit and not worth the risks in my opinion.
     
    pelea, PennyIA, melamine and 3 others like this.
  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,967
    Likes:
    1,567
    Seattle
    I agree w/Martial, and would suggest going even lower to start. There's a page on another site (I think WebMD) where hundreds of patients suffered from neuropathy and other issues, and many were taking quite low doses. I can't take more than 5-7 milligrams without problems. 120 mgs is a lot…

    Edit: Here's the link:

    http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Nutrition/B6-Toxicity/show/2642?page=1
     
    pelea and melamine like this.
  4. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,940
    Likes:
    2,822
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    I agree 120mg is a huge amount. Low and slow!

    You might have two things going on - the B6 overload and then potassium deficiency from methylation startup.

    You're making many errors - too much folate relative to B12, too high of starting amounts causing overmethylation, too much B6, taking B6 without the conversion helper, B2, or in lieu of that, not taking the already converted form (P5P), somewhat too much niacin, not having electrolytes in place first. You do have potassium on hand, which is good.

    I suggest stopping everything temporarily and reading through "Start Low and Go Slow" and "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation" in my signature links below.
     
    helen1 likes this.
  5. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

    Messages:
    588
    Likes:
    657
    USA
    B6 has been a game changer for me. I have pyroluria (suspected, diagnostic testing failed) and it basically cured my insomnia, tension, and mild vocal tics. I seem to have been severely deficient. I take Source Naturals Coenzymated B6 (P5P) Sublingual - which is 25mg per tab. Started with 1 tab per day (25mg) and slowly worked up to 4 per day (2 upon awakening, 2 before sleep.)

    When I took my first tablet I got an immediate reaction - felt warm, calm, comforted (increased serotonin). To me this indicated a deficiency.

    When I started to take Tanalbit (zinc tanins) for candida, my mild vocals tics returned, so I doubled the dose of B6 (up to the current 4 per day) and it seemed to balance things back out wonderfully.
     
  6. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

    Messages:
    178
    Likes:
    40
    Thanks for the responses, everyone.

    I read beforehand that up to 1000mg of B6 can be taken before it is considered "toxic." So it's surprising to see that, if taking it at all, only 10 mg should be taken per day. I thought I was playing it safe though by cutting the pill in half. Luckily I did, otherwise the reaction could have been twice as bad.

    Why, if only 10 mg per day should be taken, is B6 sold in tablets equal to 120mg?

    Why would it be ok for stores to sell such a toxic dose?

    @caledonia

    Thanks for your response.

    I know that methylation block can happen when methylfolate isn't taken in high enough doses, but what happens when too much folate is taken in relation to B12? What does it do?

    What is a B6 conversion helper that I can take?

    How much folate and B12 do you think I should start over with? What dose?

    Thanks!
     
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes:
    1,172
    Ventura, CA
    Not a lot of people have knowledge in regards to B 6 toxicity, just as you can purchase mega doses of many other vitamins and minerals at toxic doses. Unfortunately supplements do not come with a side effects profile so it is important to look into those things before starting anything new, on top of that some people are not informed of potential toxicities and prescribe or suggest protocols with potentially toxic doses of certain products.

    Because of your reaction already I would not even take 10mg of the pyrodoxine form, the P-5-P form can be taken at 2-10mg a day but its probably better to keep it at the RDV range for now. If you had a reaction like that it means you don't want to overload your system with much more of it, even if its a safer form of supplementation. There is really no use for high dosing b 6 outside of conditions like pyroluria. You can get all the same benefits from doses lower as long as you are at least getting in the necessary amount needed by the body each day.
     
    pelea, PennyIA and melamine like this.
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,940
    Likes:
    2,822
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    I have noticed that the supplement manufacturers give you what fits into a standard capsule, not necessarily what is the right dose. Of course, everyone is different, and ME patients can be extremely sensitive to "normal" amounts.

    Methyl trapping (stopping methylation) or depletion of B12 stores can occur if you're taking more methylfolate than B12. Also, the B12 needs to be sublingual, not oral. Certain brands work better than others.

    B2 is required to convert B6 to P5P. Or you can just take P5P which is the already converted version of B6.

    I would suggest starting with 50mg methylfolate or even less. You can always raise it up. There are a couple schools of thought on the B12. Some people say, use an equivalent amount. Some say make it 3-5 times higher.

    If you have MTR and/or MTRR mutations, I would go for higher B12 amounts relative to methylfolate.

    I have all this info and more in my documents Start Low and Go Slow, and Roadblocks to Successful Methylation linked in my signature below.
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,808
    Likes:
    2,648
    melamine likes this.
  10. AndyPandy

    AndyPandy Making the most of it

    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes:
    5,077
    Australia
    @boo85 I recently discovered I have toxic levels of B6. 713 when top of the acceptable range is around 110.

    Was most recently taking around 33mg for 1 year. Previously 8mg for around 4 years and for about 5 years before that took a PMT supplement with 100mg.

    Had no idea about potential for B6 toxicity. Possibly the cause of my progressive neuropathy.

    I've stopped the supplements now and hope the levels come down. Feeling less "poisoned" since I stopped the supplements, but this could be due to other things I am trying just now.

    Clearly not everyone will have this problem with B6, but it is good to know there is the potential for problems in some cases.

    Best wishes Andy
     
    pelea, melamine and Sushi like this.
  11. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

    Messages:
    178
    Likes:
    40
    Thanks again everyone.

    Last night I took 15mg of B6 again, but I don't think I'll take it anymore as it affects me too much mentally and makes me sleepwalk somewhat and be disorientated.

    @caledonia

    Do you think I might have chronic fatigue syndrome? I seem to be very sensitive to most supplements... :(

    Ok, so is it like, if I take too much methylfolate, then the folate tries to work with B12 too quickly, and the reserves of B12 get used up too fast? Leaving depleted stores?

    So do you think I should start again with 50mcg of methylfolate, and does 200mcg of B12 sound ok with it?

    Does a 1:4 folate:B12 ratio sound about right for me?

    When you say that I can always raise up my folate later, do you mean while also adjusting my B12 along with folate? So that the ratio is always the same? Or do you mean raise up my folate, but keep my B12 the same?

    @AndyPandy 33 mg is such a small dose, compared to my 240mg tablets that I've got. It's a bit scary that it can give people neuropathy. Thanks for sharing your story and I'm glad you're feeling better.
     
  12. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,940
    Likes:
    2,822
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Not necessarily. You have to fit the Canadian Consensus Criteria or International Consensus Criteria. In other words, do you have several days of payback with increased symptoms caused by overdoing activities? Officially called "post exertional malaise", or "post exertional neuroimmune exhaustion". Around here we just say "crashing".

    Sensitivity can be due to multiple chemical sensitivity - do you also have problems with paint, markers, new car smell, perfume, etc?

    Or just a slow running methylation and/or detox systems, low glutathione, etc.

    Yes, that's the idea. You need both folate and B12 to create methyl groups, which then creates over 40 major reactions in the body. They need to be in balance or the reaction will slow down.

    Sounds ok for a trial.

    I don't know your SNPs, so can't say if that much B12 is ok or not. It could also depend on your current B12 stores.

    Yes, I would keep them in a similar ratio, or go with what your body seems to require. I use self muscle testing (plus paying attention to symptoms) to determine this. For example, at this time I'm probably taking 100X more B12 than methylfolate.

    I have both MTR and several MTRR mutations, probably the worst I've seen on here for B12. Then I got extremely depleted in B12 by taking a multivitamin with methylfolate and no sublingual B12, thus causing B12 depletion.
     
    melamine likes this.
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,135
    Likes:
    5,750
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    I had no reason to respond to this thread, but then this statement of yours struck me. Just in the last couple months I've not been crashing in this PEM way. First time since I became ill. I believe it's due to the low dose naltrexone. And to the fact that I'm now totally committed to a coffee enema regimen at minimum twice a week. I'm not challenging you, just in the spirit of another recent thread re what is ME, going, hmmm...does this mean I no longer have ME? I don't believe that to be the case, just that the LDN has lowered the inflammatory process sufficiently, and I'm detoxxing frequently enough to have acquired a whole new level of stamina, endurance. I've just lived through a very intense 2 weeks, where this stamina has been essential. And I'm very cognizant that I'm not going to now start pushing, there are too many examples here of people who've fallen from doing just that. Just noting that, for the moment, PEM has really shifted for me. cheers:balloons:
     
    melamine likes this.
  14. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,940
    Likes:
    2,822
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Awesome! I've had some of the same thoughts as my PEM has lessened bit, but not on the order you're talking about.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  15. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    1,348
    Iowa
    I've also had episodes where my PEM seems to allow much more activity than it did before. I'm still VERY cautious and only increase my activity if the previous day(s) activity levels didn't cause payback. But it's hard. It seems like the trigger point for when I'll have PEM shifts often. Of course, I'm messing with trying to find a good methylation treatment balance and dealing with stress, family, life, etc... so I shouldn't be surprised that it's inconsistent. But I do think that even though the treatment seems to help, that eventually I find the trigger and I'm back where I started.

    Also wanted to chime in that B6 toxicity is only well studied for people who take megadoses - like taking 50 OTC pills in a week. (Athletes and fitness buffs find they can push harder with large doses). But my family seems to be intolerant of even tiny doses of b6 in the regular form, though I tolerate P5P pretty well. So, I think it's less that it's toxic to everyone at the OTC pill level. More that some of us have more difficulty tolerating it. Since we're already ill before we start methylation treatment, it's best to be more careful and start low, go slow. IMHO, a lot of methylation treatment is pretty experimental because we don't have a lot of great studies that say - you have xyz genes, and symptoms a & b - here's the dosage you need.... well, we're all tired of waiting for studies that may never come and need to start treatment now if we want to gain any of our life back. Start low, go slow helps keep this experimentation in the safer zone than we would need if we knew exactly what to do.
     
    pelea, boo85 and ahmo like this.
  16. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

    Messages:
    178
    Likes:
    40
    @caledonia I realised that I made a mistake in my first post.

    I meant to talk about taking 1/2 a dose of B6, not B3 (niacin) like I originally said.

    I meant to say this:

    Then this morning I took 400mcg methylfolate, 250mcg B12 and another 120 mg of B6. This was only half the tablet of B6. Luckily I divided it in half. That was less than an hour ago and I suddenly felt quite panicky, like something bad was going to happen. Wired but tired. Feel like I want to sleep, but don't want to be too still. No nausea or anything.

    Also, you said this:

    What's the limit for niacin per day, if I feel I need to stop/slow down methylation?

    Today I only took about 30mg of B3 (niacin) which seemed enough to slow down methylation (it felt like I was going to have a big panic attack if I didn't do anything about it.) But we'll see how I feel tonight.

    My nights have been really bad. I feel like I can't relax and fall asleep. My whole body feels stiff, and I feel a big sense of dread. I can't fall asleep properly because I get jolted awake.

    With having electrolytes in place first, since I'll be taking methylfolate/B12 every day, albeit slowly, how much electrolytes do you think I should have each day in order to have my electrolytes "in place"?

    Also, is it a good idea to make an electrolyte drink with pink salt and potassium in the same glass? Or does it affect absorption with you take potassium with salt?

    Thanks!
     
  17. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    3,940
    Likes:
    2,822
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    50-100mg niacin. Every 4 hours or even every 1/2 hour to hour if needed. I was doing 85mg every 4 hours.

    I get this too - you're probably twitching your feet and jerking yourself awake. Electrolytes should help.

    This is what my doc had me do - start with potassium, and gradually increase until you feel better. If you go too far you will start to feel worse. So you want to be in the "sweet spot". Then do magnesium, same method. If you take too much, it will make your bowels very loose, even diarrhea. So if that happens, just back off some, and that will be "your" dose. Your sleep should be improved at that point too. Then do the salt. There will be a sweet spot where it tastes pleasantly salty. You should stop craving salty foods. If you take too much, it will taste overly salty and yukky.

    Yes, it's fine to mix mag, potass and salt altogether. Like someone on here said, it tastes like "liquid unicorn". Bottoms up!

    Note: self muscle testing is unreliable for electrolytes as it requires good hydration and electrolyte balance to work properly. After you have it mostly worked out by trial and error though, you can use it to make an smaller adjustments you might need.

    For example, as my adrenals have gotten better, I've been able to stop the salt, and need less magnesium. As I've been able to raise B12, I need more potassium. Muscle testing helped figure all that out, along with symptoms.
     
  18. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes:
    651
    Arizona, USA
    Would someone please post us a reference where it's shown that 100 mg of B6 is considered a toxic amount and what those symptoms of toxicity are? (I would expect them to be neuritis, but I'm keeping an open mind.)

    Personally, I was taking 100 mg of B6 a day for several months, but my blood tests showed several symptoms (including high taurine) of B6 deficiency. I suppose there is some genetic defect we've yet to find that keeps me from converting B6 to P5P. When I switched to P5P (I now take 50 mg), my B6 deficiency indicators all went into the normal range, indicating no deficiency.

    I would have continued on in a deficient state if I followed the advice here of limiting myself to 10 mg of either P5P or B6.
     
  19. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes:
    1,348
    Iowa
    I don't believe that 100 mg of B6 is NORMALLY considered toxic, EVER at the general population level.

    However, I did become toxic on 100 mg of B6 daily, as did my mother. It's less about toxic level among the general population... as it is that SOME PEOPLE may have toxicity symptoms at lower than normal doses... so if you have negative side effects after taking it, it's worth investigating.

    I, found I can tolerate P5P perfectly well, with no negative side effects. So, like you, I'm presuming there's a genetic component. However, while mine wasn't able to convert B6 into P5P, it also seemed like it wasn't able to eliminate it through normal channels either.

    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/

    Toxicity section exerpted below:

    My symptoms were sensory neruopathy with pain and numbness in my extremeties (on my right side only) as well as three months where I wasn't able to walk.

    Stopping B6 did not eliminate symptoms but did drop my test results into normal range, however, starting methylation process did help resolve the nueropathy issues I was having.

    I think it's wise to start low and THEN BUILD up, as you said, 10mg of P5P probably isn't sufficient. But if we're self-treating, I'd recommend smaller doses to start with since it can cause issues. I'm also a strong proponent of using P5P and throwing the whole bottle of B6 out as it is so hard for so many with unknown methylation defects - which pretty much seems to drastically reduce the risk of toxicity.
     
    pelea and AndyPandy like this.
  20. boo85

    boo85 Senior Member

    Messages:
    178
    Likes:
    40
    Wow, 3 months of not walking? I'm glad you were able to start walking again. It's amazing that a supplement can do such a thing, but we are quite sensitive to supplements around here.

    Did you have any other symptoms of neuropathy while you were unable to walk?


    I can only speak for experience, but when I took 125mg of B6 the first time, and then even as little as 5mg of B6 the next few days each, I experienced really bad neuropathy of which I'm still recovering from. Just weird feeling in the nerves all over, from the tips of my fingers and in my legs, loss of balance, similar to the symptoms and feeling of a B12 deficiency.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page