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Started Equilibrant...

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Questus, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    After much reading I ordered Equilibrant, (oxymatrine formulated by Dr. Chia).

    I started with one pill a day, but after the second day had that 'hit by a truck' feeling upon waking...

    Decided to take a half a pill a day for a week before going to the full pill. Am on my third day of the one pill, and feel really bad. Hard to imagine that my goal is to get up to 6 pills a day.

    Has anyone been taking this, and how are you feeling on it?

    I know my viral titers are high because I used to get a shingles breakout about two times a year. In the past year, I've been getting shingles at least once a month, and in the last few months, sometimes weekly.

    My understanding is that Oxymatrine kills viruses, but is designated as an immune modulater. Does anyone understand why this is?

    Thanks for sharing, I'd be appreciative of hearing how other people responded to this.

    Best to everyone with CFS/ME...
  2. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    I am not taking Equilibrant, but I have been taking oxymatrine for over two years now.

    I had some difficulty at first, and had to work my way up over time. Today, I take a tablet every morning, noon, and evening without any difficulty. Even after two years, I will get headaches if I try to take a fourth tablet.

    You may want to start at a half a pill every other day and very slowly work your way up to the suggested dose. Oxymatrine works very slowly, so you really aren't losing much by going slowly. I started with the "more must be better" mentality, but was forced to slow down by that "hit by a truck" feeling. It took me about 20 months before I started noticing the results. After two years, I am really glad that I found oxymatrine.

    At the London conference, I think it was last year, Dr, Chia mentioned that it is not an antiviral, and that it most likely helped the immune system, but I am not sure that he knows for certain how it works. It doesn't seem to work for everybody, so you just have to try it for a long time and see what happens.

    As far as I know, oxymatrine will not help with the shingles outbreaks.

    John
  3. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    Thank you John for sharing your experience. I'm going to cut back again.

    I spent a lot of time Google-ing Oxymatrine today, and though Dr. Chia uses it specifically for the gut viruses, other doctors here and in China use it as a general anti-viral and anti-caner herb.

    I found someone by the name of Lloyd Wright who wrote a book and cured himself of Hepatitis C (!) and cancer using Oxymatrine. He has several videos on You-tube. Here's one on Oxymatrine called "Oxymatrine Viral Load Attack." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xav9U2KBn08

    I emailed him, (he has a website, and sells herbs, etc..) and he was very responsive and returned my email.

    Many message boards about Hepatitis talk about Oxymatrine. Found that interesting.

    On another website I found this...
    Dr John Chia, who uses oxymatrine, an immunomodulator, to treat his CFS patients, includes astragalus in his oxymatrine formulation.

    As I understand it, though, only alpha, beta and delta interferon have strong antiviral potency. Interferon gamma is a weak antiviral. There are many herbs that will stimulate IFN gamma, but only very few that boost IFN alpha or IFN beta. I have been searching a lot, but only found four:

    Reishi and astragalus will boost IFN alpha. Astragalus increases levels of alpha interferon by 45%.
    Berberine (found in Goldenseal, Barberry and Coptis root) will boost IFN beta. Echinacea may also boost INF beta.

    So a good antiviral regimen might be reishi, astragalus, berberine and echinacea.

    I came across this paper: Zinc potentiates the antiviral action of human IFN-alpha tenfold. I am not sure whether this means that taking zinc will boost the effectiveness of the herbally-induced IFN alpha.

    Also: NFkappaB negatively regulates interferon. So this indicates that NF-kB inhibitors may further boost the action of the herbally-induced IFN alpha and beta.

    My brain fog is too thick right now, but maybe someone reading this will understand what this means.

    My recent concern is that Dr. Chia does not recommend Equilibrant for anyone with an auto-immune illness, and I have Hashimoto's which is a thyroid auto-immune disease. (My body created antibodies to destroy my thyroid gland), so I take a synthetic form of thyroid hormone.

    Thanks for sharing...I know Oxymatrine is not 'news', and I researched it several years ago before Equilibrant was formulated, and chose not to use the other option because it's made in China...Hong Kong, the Kowloon side...We lived in China a few years ago and they have zero regulations about what they sell as food and herbs. Much of what they sell is contaminated. I know nothing about the different Oxymatrine herbals from China, but in general I don't want to consume anything coming out of China.

    Thank you again John, I appreciate your thoughts.
  4. searcher

    searcher

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    I started equilibrant a few weeks ago and also experienced the hit-by-a-truck feeling. I ramped up too quickly as well, and returned to 1-2 pills a day. I noticed an uptick in all of my symptoms, and also got a sore throat and tender lymph nodes. I am one of those odd PWC who had stopped catching all colds (or at least experiencing the symptoms.)
    I think it's a good sign that we are having symptoms. I suspect if we weren't fighting viruses we wouldn't see much of a change in symptoms when we use immune modulators. Theoretically equilibrant is increasing our TH1 response against intracellular bacteria/viruses, so I think we need to wait until the symptoms get back to steady-state before upping our doages.
    You mentioned zinc and astralagus. I think Dr. Chia added in more direct anti-viral herbs and minerals, like astralagus and olive leaf, so we there can be a more synergistic forumula to support our immune systems. Adding in some additional zinc could be helpful. I wish all of us self-experimenters had a way to ask Dr. Chia questions about our symptoms on equilibrant.
    Here's hoping we all see improvement soon!
  5. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    Searcher, Thank's for sharing your experience with Equilibrant.

    Two days of one pill is all I can manage. It's beyond 'hit by truck'...Complete fog. Almost stumbling..literally. Zero appetite.

    Skipped any yesterday, and will return to half a tablet today.

    Wanted to share what I found on another message board... Both Cheney and Klimas were (still are?) using Immunivor, a non-herbal prescription immune-modulater. Some people had a similar difficulty tolerating it, and both Cheney and Klimas prescribed dosing it by 'pulsing'...Changing the dosage throughout the week.

    Searcher, I've not done much self-experimenting, as you say...Been sick since '86, saw Cheney for almost 15 years...And after years of 'testing' at much expense, have simply 'coasted' on Klonopin, and a few 'must have' supplements like magnesium and melatonin.


    Am at the point where I'm going to make an appt. to see Dr. Klimas. Need to get a new educated direction. I think oxymatrine is a good thing, but I'm not qualified to judge. It seems that CFS patients are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea...The more we know, the less we know...And it goes on and on and on.

    Please let me know how you continue to do! Best to everyone with CFS/ME.
    Xandoff likes this.
  6. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    Questus:

    I went ahead and ordered equilibrant today. I have been putting it off because the White Tiger oxy has been working for me, but I have had the same fears as you. It will double my monthly cost, but I guess that the safety is worth the difference in cost.

    I am taking LDN, Artesunate, and doing the new methylation supplements also. I have had to start slowly with all of these. I have found the LDN and methylation to be especially encouraging. I am hoping that the combination will be more effective than any single teratment. Once I get to a full dose, I will report, but I am feeling better than I have in 20 years
    of CFS.

    John
  7. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    I used to take a lot of herbs until a couple of years ago, as I used to be for only natural health remedies. I had a couple of unpleasant experiences with some. I never tried Oxy but tried the individual components at one point or another. My experience is that if you get a reaction fairly soon it's probably a sensitivity or side effects to one of the herbs or the yeast bound to the selenium, and this over time could escalate and make you oversensitive to other things like foods, smells, etc. It happened to me and I can assure you that it's quite unpleasant.

    The other thing to bear in mind is that Astragalus, one of the components of Oxy, will stimulate a TH1 immune response and this may not appropriate for autoimmune disorders and for certain infections that in the chronic stage will overstimulate the TH1 (some infections initially are TH2 dominant but with time the y become chronic and shift the immune response to a TH1 dominance). One such is Borrelia (Lyme disease) which has typical viral symptoms and it's fairly difficult to diagnose. Astragalus in chronic Lyme will aggravate symptoms and the disease process.

    There are plenty of immuno-modulators out there but one needs to know which one is appropriate as the wrong one could make things worse over time.
    The good news is that if symptoms are due to a sensitivity reaction you could easily find out through autonomic response testing (muscle testing) and and then treat it as well which will resolve symptoms. I've been using this technique for over a year now and it works really well but only for intolerance, sensitivity or allergy issues.
    Good luck.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  8. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    PLEASE! share with me your LDN, Artesunate and methylation supplementation to me! I have researched Artesunate and Dr. Cheney's protocol using it, and trust his judgement completely. I have tried to read through the methylation information, and am 'not really getting it' yet. I would be very appreciative to hear what exactly what you're using, including brands, dosing, time of day. All of it!

    Am so glad you're feeling better than you have in 20 years! Awesome.

    Just a note about brands and supplements...I'm concerned about where all supplements are sourced from. If the bottle reads 'Distributed by Abd from California'...That's not telling me where they sourced from, just where they're distributing from. I tend to buy most of my supplements from Whole Foods for this reason. Again, concerns about 'stuff' coming from not only China but other areas of the world.

    John, thank you again! Am really looking forward to hearing what you're taking and how.
  9. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    I took Equilbriant for 3 months with no problems but I started slowing, one tablet/day for one week then slowly up to 3 tablets/day. I know the max dose is 6 tabs/day but I did not want to risk getting worse so I stayed at 3 tabs/day.

    I had a terrible relapse with Imunovir years ago so I am very careful with immune modulators.
  10. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    Questus:

    I am of the belief that CFS is triggered by immune deficiencies that allow opportunistic infections to develop. If XMRV is the cause of these immune problems, it doesn't seem to be enough to stop the XMRV, the immune system must be restarted before real recovery can happen. I am doing the methylation and LDN to hopefully aide the immune response.

    About three years ago, I took 8 months worth of Valcyte. I was fortunate that I didn't have any difficulty with the Valcyte, and It seems to have helped a great deal. My headache pain and brain fog are greatly reduced, and my heart made a significant recovery.

    Since then, I have tried many supplements, mostly with little or nothing to show for it. Just recently, I have tried the LDN, Artesunate and Methylation.

    I started the LDN first. I bought my Naltrexone from United Pharmacies at www.unitedpharmacies.com. It is sold under the name Nodict, and costs $ 18.50 for ten 50mg tablets. This would not be my first choice. The product is made in India, and probably doesn't meet US standards. I am working on getting a real prescription from a doctor, and that would be a much better choice. I have put my 50 mg tablet in 500 ml of purified water. I found a syringe in the baby department of my drug store that I use to measure the dose that I want. 1 ml of liquid is .1 mg of LDN. This allows me to measure out very small quantities with great precision. I initially started at 1.5 mg, but after a few days, that became too much. I backed down to .2 mg every other day, and increased the dosage by .1 mg every two weeks. I currently am up to .6 mg every other day. LDN helps with the brain fog and headaches that I have experienced. Be sure to keep the LDN in the refrigerator in a dark container when you are not using it. One tablet will last a long time, so at first you may want to throw the liquid out and start over every few weeks. I noticed some sort of fuzz growing in my bottle after a couple of months!

    I started the methylation about two months ago. Details of the supplements are elsewhere on this site, so I won't relist them. Be sure to use the latest protocol with the drops. Again, I learned that I need to start slowly. I started taking just the vitamins. I had to start cutting the tablets in half in order to keep taking them. I have had a very sore throat for over 40 years, but once I started the vitamins that has changed. My throat is almost a normal color today. I didn't notice any other changes until I sent for the new supplements. Now, after a week of the new supplements, I am feeling better every day. I am sleeping better than I have in years, ans don't have that "stressed" feeling all the time. I found all of the supplements at www.holisticheal.com. I had to call , rather than order online, as I did have a little trouble with the website. The supplements for the new protocol seem new to the website, so I am sure that I will be able to use the website soon. Once I started the new protocol, things really have changed for the better in a hurry. The original supplements, except for the vitamins didn't seem to do much for me, but in the week that I have been using the new supplements, I have noticed daily improvement. I am very encouraged by what I have seen so far, and want to thank Rich for all his hard work.

    The LDN and Methylation are supposed to start the immune response. I am taking Artesunate to help fight off any remaining viruses. I buy it from www.hepalin.com. I get the Hepasunate 50, which is $ 50.00 for a bottle of 60 capsules. I take one tablet on Tuesday. Thursday and Saturday, so that I am not taking LDN and Aretsunate on the same day. Again, I needed to start slowly. I have some concerns about the safety of the Artesunate, so I don't try to take too much. I also don't seem to have as much trouble with viruses as many do, so I see this as insurance, rather than an attack on some specific virus.

    I have been ill for over 20 years now, and hit bottom in 2005, when my blood pressure dropped to 80/50, and my pulse slowed to 50. I slept almost all of the time, and got absolutely no help from the medical community. The valcyte brought my BP back to normal, and with these other treatments, am feeling much better. There is a long way to go for me, but I am more hopeful than ever before. I am sure that we will eventually have real medications to help us, but I am now feeling much better about waiting.

    I understand how difficult it is to read and comprehend when you are suffering. The methylation on this site cam be found by going to the Forums page and scrolling down to the treatment and therapy section. Look for the DETOX: Methylation\ B12.... section. Click on the detox bar, and scroll down to SIMPLIFIED METHYLATION PROTOCOL AS OF TODAY. Scroll down to about the seventh item and you will find the list of supplements you need.

    Right now, if I had to choose, I would rate the methylation as my first choice, and the LDN second. I really believe that starting at low doses and slowly increasing is the way to go. I have read many accounts of people that start at higher doses and give up when they have problems. Everybody seems to have different tolerance levels, so you need to find out what your body can handle. I would have given up on all of these if I had to start at a full dose.

    feel free to send me a private message if you have any specific questions.

    John
  11. I tried equalibrant too - took it very slowly, increasing slowly, but suddenly after a month of slowly increasing to full dose per day - had a terrible pain and found my kidneys were reacting really badly to it - so be careful - it took me weeks to get my kidneys back to normal - it must be very strong - I usually don't have trouble taking drugs so was surprised and disappointed. I am one of those who feel imunovir/isoprinosine works for me - but it took 18months to 2 years for me to feel it really made a big difference. However although I got 100% better - was it the imunovir? 5 years later I had a relapse and am slowly improving again, gone back on it at a full dose, I pulse it as per Dr Klimas and am on 6 per day. Hoping that it is the reason I'm improving but who knows
  12. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    Xrunner...Thank you for your post, and for answering the question about auto-immune issues and overstimulating the TH1 response.

    I found this article...Dr. Cheney explaining Th1/Th2 balancehttp://www.ei-resource.org/articles/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-articles/dr.-cheney:-balance-the-immune-system-(th1%10th2)-/

    I guess there is not a blood test to determine Th1-Th2 activity?

    Runner, I agree with you when you say, "There are plenty of immuno-modulators out there but one needs to know which one is appropriate as the wrong one could make things worse over time." (forgive me, am trying to learn the quote system and haven't figured out multiple quotes yet)...

    I don't understand what you mean by "autonomic response testing (muscle testing)"...Can you explain that?

    Thank you for sharing your experience with herbs, and I hope you'l share more about the autonomic response testing.

    Best!
  13. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    Mij...What is your status now, are you still taking Equilibrant? What was your experience with Imunovir?

    Thank you!
  14. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    No, I am no longer taking Equilibrant but it is the only immune modulator that I didn't have any reaction to- good/or bad.

    My experience with Imunovir was that I went from feeling 80% improved(before Imunovir) to 30% after only taking it for one month. It started with a sore upper back with neurological/physical viral symptoms to not being able to walk, I experienced a full viral onset again and have been worse off ever since.

    Mij
  15. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    same here with the imunovir..
  16. Questus

    Questus Senior Member

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    Thanks to each person for sharing their experience with Equilibrant and Imunovir.

    I've PM'ed several of you, and appreciate your insights.

    My experience with Equilibrant has been short but illuminating.

    After initially starting at one pill a day for two days...I 'Bonked'..Waiting a few days, then took half of one pill daily for a week. No problems. Last Sunday I started at one pill daily again, and took one pill again on Moday.

    Tuesday morning..As I said, 'Had that hit by a truck feeling'. Major brain fog, and it felt as if my head were swollen. Not thinking straight, almost stumbling. It continued on Wednesday full tilt. Wed. afternoon I went with my husband to pick up our car from being serviced.

    I drove the car one mile home on a two lane brick street I've driven on thousands of times. I remember looking and thinking, "this doesn't look right"...I kept looking at the shops, no traffic lights or stops to worry about. Was completely disoriented. Finally realized I was about ten blocks west of where I thought I was.

    Thought that would be the end of it, but on Thursday I came down with a very sore throat and swollen glands. Have not had either since I can't remember when.

    I blame myself for not heeding Dr. Chia's direction. 'Do not take if you have auto-immune illnesses.' I actually have several.

    Also, I think many people hit the nail on the head with the 'start slow....go slow' advice. I tend to have a strong reactions to most drugs, and almost always, "Less is More" for me.

    Have decided I need to get a good assessment of my immune status before continuing any of the protocols...Herbal, and supplemental. Have been in contact with Dr. Klimas' clinic, and will finalize my appointment date with her on Monday, (about six weeks wait.)

    In the meantime, I'd really be interested in knowing how people are doing on Imunovir. Several people mentioned it on this thread, and it's a very mixed response.

    Thank you again.
  17. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    Leaves, did you have any immune functioning tests done prior to taking Imunovir?

    I only did an immunophenotyping test which showed CD4, CD8 etc below normal levels except my NK cells which were within normal range. The doctor who rx'd the med for me did a small study with Dr.Byron Hyde over 10yrs ago and said they didn't have any bad reactions and the only good reactions was "less fatigue".

    I wonder why we had a negative reaction. Do you have any ideas?

    Mij
  18. leaves

    leaves Senior Member

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    Hey there,

    yes immune functioning tests were done pre imunovir, my nk function was not too bad, count was low. Post/during imunovir nk function is very very low. My il 4 was very high, il 8 very low (dont know what CD means??)
    The imunovir increased aches/ and OI and overall stamina. I have a lot of neurological symptoms pre immunovir, these have increased in severity.
    Ideas; well I guess that ME is partly a immune response, so if this is increased, then so are your symptoms. If the immune response is not helpful (in the sense that it notably reduces the infection/ cause of activation) it just makes you worse.
    As for subsets: I am the type of person that never gets flu or fever. My cognitive symptoms are severe (especially memory/ coordination) You have this too?
  19. Mij

    Mij Senior Member

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    I've had ME for 20yrs, the first 10yrs I never felt flu-like or got fevers. In the last 8years I feel viral all the time, or at least 90% of time. Cognitive problems seem to have been helped by taking Fish Oils. I think my cognitive problems now are related to perimenopause because I'm starting to have night sweats. What a life, eh?
  20. Binky123

    Binky123

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    Equilibrant

    FWIW, here were my experiences (i am a 24 y/o male):

    I took equilibrant for 6 months, starting slowly and working up to the full dose of 6 pills. At first, I had bad headaches and exacerbated symptoms. After some time I stabilized, but I had a significant reduction in my tolerance for physical activity from pre-equilibrant.

    Wanting to give equilibrant a fair chance, I took it at the full dose for the next 6 months (summer 2010 - December 2010). None of my symptoms improved over this time. I was also taking reishi concurrently (with the intention of stimulating IFN-alpha). The reishi did not seem nearly as strong as the equilibrant, but was more sedating.

    I also tried astragalus by itself before, and experienced similar headaches and fatigue.

    So overall, I experienced a worsening of symptoms at first, then stabilized, but then I did not get any better over 6 months. Quitting was surprisingly not that hard - I was able to titrate down fairly quickly without feeling too bad.

    Astragalus is definitely interesting and potent, and I think it has some therapeutic potential. It would be an interesting experiment in my opinion to combine higher doses of astragalus/zinc (IFN-alpha) with curcumin (nf-kappa b inhibition), but this is just speculation.

    I should note that I did experiment with curcumin for a bit during the 6 months on oxymatrine. While taking equilibrant and curcumin concurrently I had 2 of the best weeks of my life (finally felt completely relaxed... and I NEVER feel completely relaxed...), but of course this did not last and even when I combined them again later on I could not repeat the good effects.

    Best of luck,
    denmarkk likes this.

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