1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
Looking at my symptoms, many of which are far less these days and some are gone, it would be easy to figure that I'd just been dealing with some heavy-duty menopausal issues.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Start-up/detox symptoms possible from SMP plus green veggies?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Sasha, Jan 13, 2012.

  1. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,749
    Likes:
    8,105
    UK
    Back in the summer, when I started on Fred's protocol, I got what I took to be some start-up symptoms when I added in the mb12 (I'd previously started on the basic vits, minerals, B complex and ab12). The symptoms were a weird sensation in my face and tailbone, which I'd never experienced before. As I continued with the protocol, I became increasingly exhausted and (not normal for me) got sore muscles, neither relieved by potassium or magnesium.

    I came off that protocol, those effects all went away (the exhaustion and sore muscles took a long time to go) and switched to the SMP. I've had no discernible effects, good or bad, with the SMP so far (this is Week 11).

    Three weeks ago I considerably increased my intake of green vegetables as part of the Wahls Diet, which also includes onions, hemp milk, nuts, and wild fish (hence high in Omega 3). For the last few days, I've been getting the weird sensation in my face and tailbone again. I'm also exhausted, though that could be from a virus that I caught a week ago. I've got some muscle soreness but that started the day before I started my switch to the Wahls Diet.

    Does it make any sense that I'm getting what seem to be start-up (or possibly detox) effects at this point in the SMP?

    I'm assuming a paradoxical folate deficiency caused by the folate in the greens would have kicked in ages ago but if not, would such a thing show up in my Health Diagnostics methylation panel when I get it done?
     
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,575
    Likes:
    954
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Sasha,

    Interesting. I wish I could have more answers for you on the paradoxical folate deficiency. I'm going to speculate out loud a little bit here on how that might be possible and ask you a few more questiosn. Now suppose that b12 was the most limiting factor until you took some. You might have been limping along on the folate you could use in your body because lack of b12 hindered the usage of folate by your body. Then you got some b12 in your body and maybe some folic or folinic acid, then you increased green veggies and that started blocking the folate more so the flate became the most limiting factor. So I don't know, just a possible pathway to where you are at.

    Do you have IBS? Does it come and go. What about sores at corners of mouth? Inflammation in body? Inflmmation in muscles? Allergies, food or cehmical sensitivities? Nausea? Malaise? What other symtpoms besides the feeling in face and tailbone, which sounds neurological, come and go in time with these things, or maybe the veggies or other symptoms? Has the fatigue come and gone? Without taking extra Metafolin it can take a long time for the "temporary" symptoms to go away.

    When you started the protocol what type(s) of folate were you taking? Foliv acid in b-complex and others, folinic acid? metafolin?
     
  3. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,749
    Likes:
    8,105
    UK
    Hi Fred, thanks for replying. In answer to your questions:

    I have no IBS or sores. I'm not sure what you mean by inflammation in the body (I'd probably know if I'd got it, though!). If I push things I get muscle inflammatory pain and (non-nauseous, just general whole-body "yuck" feeling) malaise as part of PENE (and have for the last several years, not just since the b12 protocols). I'm not aware of any allergies or chemical sensitivities apart from that I've been wondering lately if I might have a slight dustmite allergy because my nose gets a bit blocked at night; plus eating rice seems to give me a tiny patch of eczema next to my nose). I get no nausea and my malaise is limited to PENE. I've noticed no other symptoms that arrived with either b12 protocol (except cracking headaches with your protocol at the beginning; haven't had those on the SMP) and no old symptoms that seemed to flare in time with the veggies or other symptoms. The fatigue isn't coming and going; I think the fatigue may be due to worsening OI (my GP thinks I have OI and a cardiologist on a short test didn't but I think it's fatigue caused by OI that makes me have to lie down for 4 hours total a day, normally; that has increased to 8 hours). The fatigue/OI thing may have been worsened by a recent viral illness, though.

    On your protocol, I was taking no folic or folinic acid, only 800mcg metafolin. I had no symptoms when I started it (before I introduced the b12s). On the SMP I'm taking 200mcg folinic acid.
     
  4. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,749
    Likes:
    8,105
    UK
    No muscle soreness today and more energy, and I upped my intake of greens yesterday. Still have the face/tailbone start-up (?) weirdness going on.

    Is it possible that what I'm eating has some co-factors in that I was missing? According to Dr Wahls (whose MS diet I'm partly following), spinach is high in ALA, there's NAC in onions, etc.
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,575
    Likes:
    954
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Sasha,

    Too fast. An induced folate deficiency takes a while for the blocking agent to accumulate. For instance it might take a week or 10 days for the folinic acid to accumutalte to the point of blocking the metafolin enough to show symptoms. Some symtpoms come more slowly than others. I have a sequence of first one symptom, then a few days later a few more and a week later some other ones and a week later some addtional ones.
     
  6. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,749
    Likes:
    8,105
    UK
    Hi Fred - I take the weird sensations to be most likely a good sign of neurological stuff starting up (maybe I'm wrong) rather than a deficiency symptom, because they were immediate effects of taking mb12 on your protocol. The tailbone thing is sometimes a dull, burning sensation - I think it might be a healthy attempt by that region to register pain! Some bit of my spine play up sometimes because of my immobility and maybe if my nerves were working properly, it would hurt quite a bit. The exhaustion and muscle soreness maybe suggest a deficiency, which made me wonder about the folate.
     
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,575
    Likes:
    954
    Salt Lake City
    HI Sasha,

    I agree with your analysis and that is why I did not mention the tailbone and face and only twhy the other wouldn't happen as soon as eating vegetables.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page