Well said Sing. I think this is perhaps the main issue I'd want to emphasise in all of this: for everyone to realise that many of the people they are watching who may seem to them to be 'softer' or 'less radical' - or even 'obstructive' - are actually under incredible pressures, working face to face daily at the front lines with those we might see as our real 'enemies' - and putting extra pressure on them or undermining them really doesn't help us at all. The agencies do need to be questioned rigorously, through those agency reps, but the individuals themselves deserve our respect, and that can sometimes become a subtle distinction that can get lost. We need to imagine the context for those people. This is where we need a bit of imagination to try to understand what's actually going on here in the bigger picture, and we need to understand who our friends are. I think that if we can all realise and understand the situation that an individual like Susan Maier is in, and really take on board what she said in her response...I think if we all think about that seriously we can start to see that in a very important sense we are all on the same side here. It doesn't mean we all agree on everything, and we still have to work through the difficult issues and get our points across, but we really have to start from the appreciation that the people who are here in front of us (ie at CFSAC) are the ones that actually do care. Everyone should start from that premise when working through the more complicated and difficult arguments and I think that CFSAC does so to a very large extent. There are some much more cynical attitudes out there, some really horrible ignorance and uncaring attitudes in the workplace I have no doubt (imagine the context of the CDC reps who work day to day in a culture that in the past featured those despicable cartoons about CFS posted in their workplace) and perhaps we should reserve our angers and frustrations for the ones out of sight who are putting these kinds of pressures on those who try to support us. It must be horrible for somebody like Susan Maier when she gets pressure from both sides. I think we do better if we try to support and work with those people who are actually trying to help us. We need to recognise it when there are people who are actually on our side but who just happen to work within a radically different context. That kind of dialogue is incredibly hard work actually, for all concerned, and again: I respect all those who persevere with it.