The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Sore Kidneys and Methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by shannah, Jan 10, 2015.

  1. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    I remember reading something about this but have searched in vain for information on it now. Low potassium? Not enough folate?

    Could someone post what it's in relation to and what the remedy is please. Thanks.
     
  2. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Hi, hopefully you rule out UTI first.
     
  3. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    This is my anecdotal experience and I am not not in the medical field. I know very little about the methylation protocol.

    Are you taking high doses of vitamin D? The two times I have under my doctor's advice, I ended up with kidney stones. This, along with other adverse effects, is a known risk, with high doses of vitamin D and I think calcium, but am not positive about the latter.

    Once you pass a kidney stone there's a tendendency to produce more. However, this also runs in my family but I had not had any before this. Plus, correlation is not necessarily causation. I am now on a lower dose of Vitamin D. It might take longer to get in the normal range, but at least I'm headed in the right direction.

    Yes, get checked for a UTI. Several times I have tested positive for a UTI despite a clean catch but when urine was taken directly from my bladder with a catheter, there was no sign of an infection.

    As I said, this may not apply to you.

    Good luck.
    Barb
     
  4. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Thanks for your comment. It's just since I've started the methylation protocol and waxes and wanes. Ranges from sore to aching and seems to calm regularly but haven't been able to connect with what I'm doing or not doing.

    I'm sure I've read a remark on here about sore kidneys and I think it was in relation to either low potassium or insufficient folate but looking to pin it down.
     
  5. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Hi Barb,

    I have increased D as of a few weeks ago as the inflammation was flaring badly again and I always find increasing D helpful for calming it down. I don't think I've noticed a connection with sore kidneys and D increase in the past but that doesn't necessarily mean anything as our systems seem so often to change frequently.

    Thanks. Perhaps it is this. I'll try backing down and see what happens.
     
  6. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Hi, what about K2 to prevent that? (I.e., K2 shepherding the calcium to bones/teeth rather than the calcium going to stones/arteries/spurs.)
     
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  7. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I can't take Vitamin K as it would interfere with my heart medication. This is why it's so important to tell your doctor any supplements you are taking. In fact there are quite a few supplements that shouldn't be taken with heart medications.

    http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/consumer-health/in-depth/herbal-supplements/art-20046488

    Is there science behind vitamin k and kidney stones? From what I've read, and tbh, it's not that much, it's only needed in infants and a few rare illnesses. I couldn't find anything on preventing kidney stones but I may need to do more digging. Not saying there isn't evidence but I haven't found any. Yet.:D

    I don't take supplements unless there is some science behind them, a deficiency or at least scientic plausability to take them. I only take prescription supplements because vitamins are not regulated in the US.

    I'm obviously not a fan of supplementation, think they are way overhyped and too underegulated. But that's my take.

    Barb
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
  8. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    http://www.westonaprice.org/health-...-a-sixty-two-year-old-mystery-finally-solved/
     
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  9. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    I've just restated SAM-E (100mg) and have mildly sore kidneys. Urine is foamy also.
     
  10. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @adreno
    A lack of vitamin K is not causing my kidney stones.

    Weston A Price Foundation gives advice that is NOT science based.

    Flank pain can be caused by many conditions from a pulled muscle to something serious.

    If something is truely giving you flank pain, or foamy urine, this needs to be looked into by a doctor. Attributing, a sympton to a supplement, which may or may not be true, thinking you don't need to do anything else, could delay needed medical treatment. You don't want to fool around with things like this.

    Here's a critique of vitamin K as well as the the Weston P. Price foundation. Take what information you want from it.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/k2-the-vitamin-not-the-mountain/

    http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/the-truth-about-the-weston-price-foundation.html

    http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/reflections-on-the-weston-a-price-foundation.html

    I don't really want to debate this as I was simply talking about my experience with vitamin D which taken in large doses can cause kidney stones as well as other dangerous side effects.

    Barb
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  11. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Did I say that? No, I didn't. You asked for evidence, I gave a citation.

    There are references in that Weston Price article, so I doubt they are making it up on their own. It doesn't mean I endorse everything the foundation says, however.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  12. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    I've only begun recently learning about it to help someone else. It also helps me to solidify knowledge by typing things out. For starters, K1 is the one more associated with coagulation; K2 is associated more with handling calcium.

    I see that in the following example: a very large dose of vit D resulted in more fractures, not less, in elderly Australian women. Therefore it seems logical that there is more to the picture to be discovered, in order to make sense. A good candidate for that missing element would be a component that shepherds calcium around. Bone is more protein than mineral, calcium doesn't home to bone by itself, vit D2 is said to activate the protein that does the shepherding.

    I am very grateful that I can take the risk and have the freedom to try something rather than being at the mercy of bureaucrats who have the power to tell me what I can take - or order us to give $100 to an MD for a presciption for vitamin C. I'd be happy to sign a form with every purchase that says only I am responsible.

    Vit D was certainly a huge hype. I'm still waiting for news headlines that disease in the western world has declined by 70% because everybody is swilling so much of the supposed cureall vit D. :meh:

    Still, sometimes a supp (such a mast cell stabilizers) )does have a great benefit (as I know personally), so while not thinking that a supp is the answer for everything, I am sometimes willing to investigate when it seems warranted - as when there is a simple and plausible mechanism as opposed to the jargon-filled multi-step parthways that always get bandied around.

    I don't wait to wait for large RCTs to in effect give me permission to take something that I know works. Besides, relying on RCTs is no guarantee of anything, as seen in the recent collapse of (prescription) Niaspan use.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
    South likes this.
  13. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    While the supplement industry is full of hype, that site goes to the opposite extreme. I think of it as the skeptic industry, if not for profit then for ego/fame. A prime example: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/candida-and-fake-illnesses/

    "One popular fake illness is chronic candidiasis."

    To say in effect that "there is no RCT that proves something, therefore it does not exist" is just plain ignorant - and patently illogical. Yes, candidiasis was hyped as causing everything. The opposite nonsense says it never existed. I know personally that it does exist.

    Some say that CFS doesn't exist :bang-head:
     
    South likes this.
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @shannah
    Are you sure the soreness comes from you kidneys? ME/CFS patients can have muscle soreness or pain in the muscles of the back, which could be confused with kidney soreness.
     
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  15. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Thanks for commenting Hip. I experience lots of different types of pain in lots of different areas but this one that I'm referring to here is kidney soreness.
     
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I had pains in my back, and I thought they might be kidney pains. However, my doctor, after prodding and poking me in various locations on my torso, said that my pains most likely came from my back muscles. He advised anti-inflammatories, which work for muscle pain. I took some ibuprofen, and sure enough, within hours the pains were much better. So he was right, it was my muscles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
  17. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    @adreno

    You did not say that and I owe you an apology. I misread your post and overeacted.

    I am not trying to excuse myself but I just found out I have some heart problems, not that serious, along with the kidney stones, so it touched a nerve. I also did not realize I was on the methylation forum where views are a bit different than mine so out of respect I don't usually post here.

    If something is posted in a more generalized forum, debate is fair game.

    If we all had the same opinion, it would be a boring world, eh?

    My opinions are the same, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

    I will change my post to reflect this.

    Take care.

    Barb
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
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  18. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    good luck
     
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  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @shannah The Methylation cycle feeds into the Urea cycle. You may be overwhelming your kidneys. I suggest you to make a check up with a nephrologist if you have problems in that area. For me methylation increased ammonia and uric acid, I have low oxalates, I don't know how it all interacts for a person with high oxalates. I was lucky to get a recommendation to a good nephrologist, but before I found her I had to solve my issues by myself since I got no useful lab tests or diagnosis at the ER.
     
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  20. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    It certainly would. And I agree with you that there is no evidence directly showing vitamin K to prevent kidney stones. Also your point about interactions with meds is certainly important.

    How I see it is that "supplements" are just pieces of biochemistry, and biochemistry is certainly important and relevant. In other words, taking supplements can change your biochemistry.

    We know that vitamin K is involved with the regulation and assimilation of calcium, and since calcium excretion is involved with most kidney stones, it is not unreasonable to think that there could be an influence.

    I also don't see things as on/off switches. Vitamin K (or anything else) is just one factor in your biochemistry, and other factors might overwhelm it.

    So as I see it, what we can do is try to create a biochemical environment that is unfavourable to kidney stone production. This could involve reducing calcium excretion and uric acid creation (depending on stone type), as well as other measures.

    Of course, it is up to each individual if they can and will attempt this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
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