The Power and Pitfalls of Omics: George Davey Smith’s storming talk at ME/CFS conference
Read about the talk that stole the show at a recent ME/CFS conference in Simon McGrath's two-part blog.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

"something in the serum"

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by ScottTriGuy, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    I'm communicating with a couple of journalists - I've provided them with a link to Davis' transcript with the above quote - but I think there may be 1 or 2 other researchers who have found abnormalities in the blood recently - does any one have those links handy?

    Thanks.
     
  2. sdmcvicar

    sdmcvicar

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    From the Theorell et al discussion thread, there is the finding that after the nk cells have been cultured, there's no alteration in cytotoxic capacity of the cells:

    Unperturbed cytotoxic lymphocyte phenotype and function in myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome patients
    Jakob Theorell1*, Indre Bileviciute Ljungar2, 3, Bianca Tesi4, 5, Heinrich Schlums1, Mette S. Johnsgaard6, Babak Asadi Azarbaijani7, 8, Elin Bolle Strand7, 9 and Yenan T. Bryceson1, 10*
    1. Department of Medicine, Huddinge, Karolinska Institutet, Sweden
    2. Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, Karolinska Institutet, Sweden
    3. Department of Clinical Sciences, Danderyd, Karolinska Institutet, Sweden
    4. Department of Women’s and Children’s Health, Karolinska Institutet, Sweden
    5. Department of Molecular Medicine and Surgery, Karolinska Institutet, Sweden
    6. Klinikk for Alle, Storo, Norway
    7. Department of Geriatric Medicine, Oslo University, Norway
    8. VID Specialized University, Norway
    9. Department of Geriatric Medicine, Oslo University, Norway
    10. Department of Clinical Science, University of Bergen, Norway
    Front. Immunol. | doi: 10.3389/fimmu.2017.00723
    Received: 15 Dec 2016; Accepted: 08 Jun 2017.


    I haven't vetted the following papers, but they're compiled from ME-pedia on NK cell function (http://me-pedia.org/wiki/Natural_killer_cell#Ampligen) in the Notable Studies section:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003121/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2586059/
    https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...ptom-severity-2155-9899-1000348.php?aid=59415



    You could also potentially point to the Naviaux paper about metabolic abnormalities: (http://www.pnas.org/content/113/37/E5472.full)


    Sorry for the lack of proper hyperlinks, I'm in a rush on something else today. Hope these help.
     
  3. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    That's awesome, thanks much.
     
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  4. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    The NIH intramural study seems to have found exactly the same thing as Davis by the sounds of it, but I'm not sure if they will confirm these preliminary findings to reporters yet. They might but it's very understandable if they don't want to comment just yet. The source of this information is Brian Vastag who is a participant in the study.

    Danish researchers have reported that they've also seen problems with energy production, but they have not given details, so they might have found something else. These are also preliminary findings.
    https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://videnskab.dk/krop-sundhed/kronisk-traethed-kan-skyldes-dysfunktionelle-celler?utm_content=buffer5b5b9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&edit-text=&act=url

    Norwegian researchers have found "something in the serum". Cell cultures (commercially available muscle cells if memory serves me right) exposed to blood from severely ill patients display metabolic abnormalities. This is in published research.
    http://insight.jci.org/articles/view/89376

    This isn't a "something in the serum" finding but could be closely related. Muscle cell cultures from patients that are stimulated with electricity also display metabolic abnormalities.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122982
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I like that phrase, "something in the serum".

    I can imagine a scene in a science fiction film, where a mysterious disease is rapidly spreading around the globe turning people into vegetables that can't function, and after massive efforts to pin down the cause, finally one scientist in the lab turns to another, and ominously announces: "there's something in the serum".
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    There was also Cort's tweet from the Florida IACFS/ME conference 2016 in which Fluge announced his studies suggest the immune system is producing anti-mitochondrial antibodies that are whacking the mitochondria. I don't know if Fluge's conference presentation is available on video or transcribed, or whether there are other Fluge and Mella videoed presentations that talk about this finding.
     
  7. Londinium

    Londinium Senior Member

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    The Fluge & Mella study in JCI Insights linked by @A.B. is the only published research I'm aware of that shows patient serum causes metabolic disturbance in healthy cells. Conversely, there is also the so-called Stanford Energy Paradox which indicate that ME/CFS patients' mitochondria produce additional ATP but where the cells were tested outside of the serum. Thus this result is entirely consistent with patient serum causing energy production inhibition, with patients' mitochondria desperately trying to overcome this via adaptation (increased mitochondrial cristae).
     
  8. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    Excellent, very helpful - thanks @A.B.
     
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  9. Rossy191276

    Rossy191276

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    From the look of the Danish article it seems that from their initial results they are theorising that 'broken' mitochondria are the source of the problems. Maybe this is getting lost in translation but this seems in contrast to Davis who has said the mitochondria themselves are fine and Naviaux cell danger theory... hopefully the Danes are in communication with the USA, Norwegian, and Australian groups
     
  10. Skippa

    Skippa Anti-BS

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    Don't forget the weird situation whereby ME/CFS patients can't donate blood (UK)

    If indeed it is true...
     
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  11. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

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    Ditto in Canada.

    Evidently 'false illness belief' must be blood borne.

    The next step will be to isolate and quarantine people with ME so our 'false illness belief' doesn't spread around the world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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  12. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    My understanding is this was (sensibly) brought in in 2010, when it seemed XMRV had been detected in CFS patients, rather than being lab contamination.

    I'm not sure it's been properly reviewed since.

    I would really like to try taking someone who's having / about to have bad PEM, and giving that persons blood plasma to a healthy person.
    (certain ethical issues exist) Mice?

    Severe PEM, when you are badly injured and requiring a transfusion seems like very bad idea.
     
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  13. slysaint

    slysaint Senior Member

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    The way they spun it at the time though was it was to 'protect donors' from their condition worsening as a resulto_O.
     
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  14. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Do you want te give human plasma to mice?
     
  15. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    I am unsure of the practicalities, but if it could be done, it may be interesting.
    I suspect you would need 'humanised' mice, which are quite expensive.
     
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    They are also a waste of time.
     
  17. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    There were old experiments where monkeys were made ill from human ME blood. At that time they didn't know it was "something in the serum" ;)
     
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  18. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member

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    We are also not allowed to be organ donors for transplant on our deaths, if I remember correctly. (UK)
     
  19. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    Is this really true though?

    I was in the unfortunate position recently when my next-of-kin and close relative died suddenly when with me, and I was asked by the medical staff if I would grant permission for organ donation. When they gave me the list of exclusions, ME, I noted, wasn't listed.
     
  20. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    In the UK, the line is there are two conditions and two conditions only which unconditionally rule you out - Creutzfeldt-Jakob-disease and cancer that's spread in the last 12 months.

    Anything else is up to your doctor. In principle, even HIV+ donors organs are usable (to HIV+ recipients).
     

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