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Some inforamtion on titrated mb12-Metafolin-potassium ratios and startup

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Consider these four patterns.


    person 1 - 40,000mgs/day absorbed mb12/adb12, 15000mcg Metafolin, 2000-3000mg potassium
    person 2 - 2000mcgs/day absorbed mb12/ADB12, 800mcg Metafolin, 99mg potassium
    person 3 - 50mcg/day absorbed mb12/adb12, 1600mcg Metafolin, 2100mg potassium
    person 4 - 200mcg/day absorbed mb12, 3200mcg Metafolin, 2400+mg potassium

    All four of these people titrated to effective dose when there was any indication of need. These titrations are not complete yet for persons 3 and 4 but are currently stable and this is the balance.

    Person 1 - huge body mb12 response, huge CNS mb12 response, Huge body response to adb12/l-carnitine-fumarate, CFS FMS, paradoxical folate deficiency. Large healing startup response including low potassium and low folate
    Person 2 - small CNS response to adb12, no blocked methylation, only a few symptoms b12 related, no large responses.
    Person 3 - mild body mb12 response at this dose, moderate CNS-mb12 response, no body adb12 response at this dose, huge CNS adb12-l-carnitine-fumarate response. Large healing startup response with both low potassium and low folate, no diagnoses, lots of symptoms but NOT folate deficiency symptoms intially and no mb12 body symptoms
    Person 4 - Huge body and CNS response to mb12. Huge startup response including low potassium and low folate. CFS, FMS and ???. Lots of symptoms


    Person 2 is typical of people taking these supplements where there has been no deferred healing or growth and they don't exhibit any of the possible diseases of the b12/folate deficiencies.

    What is very clear is that 50-100mcg of mb12/adb12 is sufficient to cause full fledged startup with induced low potassium and induced low folate. This is NOT caused by a large mb12 dose . There is not FORCED anything here. There is an attempt for the body to become "normal" again and mb12/metafolin are the most deficient items. 50mcg of mb12/adb12 is enough in sensitive people to start full blown healing. The hypothesis that Metafolin need is "created" by large mb12 doses is clearly ot supported at all. As I had previously said healing turns on suddenly by layers. It takes very little mb12 to start healing. No amount of hydroxycbl or cyanocbl starts much healing reliably. 50mcg of mb12/adb12 is vastly superior to any amount of hydroxcbl for most purposes.

    I would be most pleased to receive info of the type presented here on the ratios anybody else has established for themselves.
  2. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    What about magnesium? All these lovely new cells will need intracellular magnesium too? I've had no potassium problems thus far on methylation sups -- only an increased need for magnesium,.

    hixxy
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Hixy,

    That too is information I NEED so it can be taken into account and added to the list. What are the specific symptoms that signal it's need and helps relieve? Thankyou.
  4. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    I started needing 2000mg potassium per day even on 500mcg methyl b12. The amount of potassium needed did not increase, even at 40mg methyl b12 per day. I currently take 20-25mg methyl b12 per day.
  5. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    The main one was extreme overstimulation from methylfolate. I currently only use hydroxob12, so can't comment on methylb12.

    I am still overstimulated by methylfolate supplementation even in small doses compared to a lot of people, but I had an immediate improvement upon adding transdermal magnesium to my regime. Seems oral magnesium (600mg) wasn't working so well for me.

    So far potassium requirement has been minimal (I take 99mg here and there, but doing it as a preventative as opposed to because of potassium deficiency symptoms), this is not to say this won't change in the future.
  6. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Have you continued to see more benefits from the increase in methylb12 dose? I'm hesitant to swap from hydroxob12 to methylb12 at the moment, but I do suspect it will have to happen at some point, or at least maybe a combination of methylb12 and hydroxob12.
  7. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    I continued to see benefit up to about 20mg per day. I was on 45mg per day for several months, but didn't see an appreciable difference above 20mg. I started on a very small amount and took a couple of months to work up to 20mg. A bit more benefit every time I added 2mg or so up to this point. I've never tried hydroxy, personally.
  8. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Did you do either 23andme or Yasko nutrigenomics testing at any point? Curious if it held indicators for how you tolerate methyl groups. COMT/VDR mutations.
  9. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    I haven't done any testing. I just got the smallest possible bottle of b12 (Enzymatic therapy 1mg that cost $6 per bottle) and since they've helped some, I took that as my indicator. I haven't had trouble tolerating the methyl b12, luckily, though some people are unable to tolerate it.

    I did have a serum b12 blood test about a year prior, which actually showed a high level, but I had been taking a cheap b complex with cyanocobalamin, which actually gave me some chest pains. They went away when I stopped the cheap b complex and I haven't had that problem with methyl b12. If you can get testing for further things, that's probably good. However, I wouldn't necessarily wait until the testing is done to try a small amount of b12.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi L'engle,
    And how much Metafolin?
  11. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    1,000mcg mb12 made me grumpy and worsened my sleep issues, so I've switched back to 2,000mcg of hb12.

    I need 1800mg of potassium to avoid muscle cramping - I check my levels with a potassium meter. This amount probably brings me up to the RDA; I don't get much in my food.

    The only folate I take is the 400mcg of metafolin in one B-Complex. I have no way of gauging how much I need. There's no feedback loop.

    I am slowly gaining back ground I lost last year, in overall energy. The biggest obvious change has been gut transit time. I used to have to take 800-1200 mg of magnesium daily to keep things moving. I don't use magnesium any more.
  12. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    A potassium meter?? You can do this at home?

    Does anyone know of bulk potassium supplement (in capsules) that is available at a shop that ships worldwide. The products on iherb so small if you end up taking huge doses. Id like to put it in the cupboard in anticipation of needing it in the future.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madietodd,

    1,000mcg mb12 made me grumpy and worsened my sleep issues

    The only folate I take is the 400mcg of metafolin in one B-Complex. I have no way of gauging how much I need. There's no feedback loop.


    I include both together because the grumpy and worsened sleep could be low folate and then part of the feedback loop. There are a number of symptoms that can give you that feedback loop, folate insufficiency symptoms. What about adb12 anf l-carnitine fumarate?

    How is the potassium meter working out? Does it help to avoid problems? How well is it working?
  14. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Hixxy and Freddd,

    Interesting information. I'll try adding Solgar back in, and see if my sleep shifts.

    I have never taken adb12 or l-carnitine. I got sidetracked figuring out potassium, and then I stopped sleeping, and my brain fell out. Remind me why I might want to test them?

    The potassium meter is useful, and a bit of a pain to use. I can't get reliable information about how it compares with blood serum levels, but I don't really care any more. When I hit 7 x 100 on the meter, I'm feeling pretty awful, and I'm doing well at 10 x 100. So I use it to keep an eye on fluctuations. It would have been much harder to figure out how much to supplement daily, without the meter.

    According to one source, 7.3 on the meter = a blood level of 3.45. 10.4 is supposed to = blood level of 3.65 - just barely in reference range. The highest I've ever gotten is 13, which is = to about 3.8.

    Madie
  15. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    I'm interested (and I'm sure there may be others who are too) in where you got the meter and if it's available online? Are they expensive?

    I find mineral balancing to be a nightmare to the point where I usually end up giving up in despair.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madietodd,

    I have never taken adb12 or l-carnitine. I got sidetracked figuring out potassium, and then I stopped sleeping, and my brain fell out. Remind me why I might want to test them?

    Well, they represent 1/2 of the possible b12 deficiencies, adb12-CNS and adb12-body with l-carnitine fumarate being a critical cofactor for ATP gneration. When the deficiency is in the brain it can cause damage and malfunctions galore. This specific deficiency appears to tie in with hyper responsveness to some of the nutrients causing both nerve startup and nerve ATP startiup to be intolerable. There is also a set of symptoms associated with it and possible progression to serious diseases. I don't know when it becomes irreversible. The damage continues increasing until it is reveresed. At some point the neurological damage becomes permannet and not repairable.
  17. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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  18. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I get potassium from purebulk. Not in caps, though.
  19. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

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    Easily capped with a capsule machine a now food veggie caps!
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I guess, but I just mix it in water.

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