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Some ideas re Chris Armstrong's presentation at Stanford

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Richard7, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Ah, but what does a healthy person's digestive system look like? Its hard to know as most people's digestive systems have been artificially altered through ingestion of processed foods, pesticides, antibiotics, genetically modified foods, and high carbohydrate nutrient poor foods.

    One can go through the entire system, step by step, looking at the integrity of structure for each digestivecotgsn, proper biochemical production and microbiome composition. There are interventions to improve structural integrity, improve biochemistry and manipulate microbiome composition.

    Digestive enzymes are one such intervention.

    One can't regain health without good attention to optimizing digestive function, but this alone will not cure most of us. It may be a component of a cure, but there are another systems gone awry that need to be righted.
     
  2. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    This is definitely the case with me. Just one day of taking a probiotic with Lactobacillus Acidophilus brought back SIBO whereas taking Bifido bacteria in the form of Activia every day has really settled the SIBO and made my gut/stool function much improved. This is since the beginning of September.

    I am also trying individual probiotic strains, 2 weeks of each one. Have just finished L Fermentum M3 and now on L Rhamnous but not sure yet whether they are good for me or not. The other one that really suits me is the soil based probiotic Prescript Assist.

    Pam
     
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  3. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Just to say this also suits me, I can only eat small meals so do need a top up of something like peanuts/cashews/pumpkin seeds/sunflower seeds about 2 - 3 hours after a main meal. Eating this way has kept me slim I am pleased to say but carbohydrates don't suit me especially gluten which I completely avoid. I do well with fat, vegetables, small amounts of meat and fish plus regular amounts of nuts/seeds.

    Pam
     
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  4. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    I have been looking at a lot of commercial enzyme formulations and there is one (Klaire Labs Sibb Zyme) that is described as brush border support and should emulate it.

    I have ordered it and when it arrives (in a few weeks as I could not find an Australian reseller) I will use it along side my Creon, ox bile, betaine HCL and pepsin.

    There seem to be a lot of formulations that contain the same enzymes but also contain cellulases and hemicellulases and other enzymes that break down fibre which I do not want to do. My aim after all is to try to emulate a healthy digestive system.
     
  5. Ben H

    Ben H OMF Correspondent

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    Keep at it @Richard7 . I've been looking at this theory recently too! I really enjoyed Chris's talk (and his work in general).


    B
     
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  6. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

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    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  7. anni66

    anni66 mum to ME daughter

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    Low ATP activates AMPK. From testing both cellular and mitochondrial ATP levels are low for my daughter which explains the level of compromised function she has
     
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  8. Murph

    Murph :)

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    AMPK cares about the ratio of ATP to ADP and AMP. If ADP or AMP is higher than ATP, it will turn on.

    Naviaux measured outside the cell and found far higher ATP than AMP. That would suggest no AMPK activation.

    But. AMPK is inside the cell. And if the abundant AMPK otuside the cell has come from inside the cell (this is precisely what naviaux's purinergic signalling theory is), there could be an ATP shortfall inside, leading to AMPK activation.

    --
    Lots of things in me/cfs seem to be activating ampk in the background. Also, A lot of PEM triggers seem to be things that activate ampk. Exercise, for one.

    One idea I'm toying with is that ampk has been so perpetually hyper-activated that it is no longer really receptive to the activation signal, and when it is supposed to kick in it doesn't. Whatever positive processes it is supposed to produce don't happen and we feel terrible. (Precisely what is downstream of ampk seems to be glossed over in all the papers- I'm not sure we know all that well how it works).
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  9. rodgergrummidge

    rodgergrummidge

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    @pattismith @Richard7 @Ben H ATP is a universal energy source for essentially all our cells. ATP is 'burnt' to produce energy and the spent fuel is ADP and AMP.
    Several metabolic studies in CFS patients have shown that they have defects in their ability to generate energy in the form of ATP. In such situations their ATP/AMP ratios are low. Cells have internal rheostats that constantly monitor ATP/AMP ratios and if they fall to low levels, cells respond to the energy crisis by activating a number of pathways to restore the deficit. One of the key enzymes that is activated by a low ATP/AMP ratio is AMPK which regulates an 'energy crisis program' in order to restore ATP levels. Unfortunately, because some CFS patients have mitochondrial defects in ATP production, ATP/AMP ratios can be chronically (or intermittently) low leading to the chronic (or intermittent ) activation of AMPK. Activated AMPK promotes 'energy sparing' by reducing non-essential anabolic pathways that may include restocking glycogen energy reserves, building new tissues, repairing damaged tissues and performing important tissue maintenance. The reduced levels of all these processes is thought to contribute to the reduced capacity of CFS patients to exercise as well as their prolonged recovery (PEM) after exercise.

    Several people have mentioned that rapamycin (or rapamune) can help in CFS and have mentioned several cases in Dallas (I think?). However, no-one seems to know the origin of the story, where the treatments were performed, how many patients, or any other details. Based on these stories, several people were going to try rapamycin. It would not be something I would try. In fact is 'on-target' activities of immunosuppression could actually make CFS worse or cause longer-term immune problems.

    Rodger
     
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  10. anni66

    anni66 mum to ME daughter

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    Thanks@murph. I' m not at all scientific but learning. Ox phos is also inefficient and ADP to ATP conversion crap - so energy mechanism is pretty screwed...
     
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  11. tyson oberle

    tyson oberle Senior Member

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    Is Creon the same as pancreatin? If not, what is the difference?
     
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  12. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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  13. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

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    Well I have had some feedback from the enzyme companies,

    Creon's proteases are inactive zymogens. So the amylase and lipases will work but the proteases will not unless they are activated by an appropriate protease.

    In a healthy gut some trypsinogen (a zymogen) is converted into trypsin by a brush border protease and the trypsin then converts the rest of the trypsinogen and other zymogens into active proteases.

    It seems wrong to me that they can even list HUT values on proteases that are not active, or that are part of preparations that are not self activating.

    The SIBB Zymes on Klaire Labs site they say
    http://www.klaire.com/prod/proddetail.asp?id=K-SIB

    But when I emailled them to ask if the enzymes were capable of activating Zymogens the answer I got was
    Now I had not asked what the purpose of the DPPIV was, but "Will any of the proteases in Sibb-Zymes cleave the zymogen trypsinogen turning it into the active protease trypsin?" So it is a weird answer/nonanswer but it seems that the SIBB Zymes will not activate zymogens.

    I know that there are plant enzymes that are trypsin like (the first ones were found in lettuce in the 60s) but will have to look around for a source.

    Its a shame though. If I had tonnes of money I guess I would just get a compounding pharmacy to make something up. Actually SIBB Zymes is pretty expensive, it might be best to talk to a compounding pharmacy ....

    I certainly wish I had had the foresight to email the company before ordering their product. I only emailled them as an afterthought, a "i" I was dotting or "t" I was crossing for the purpose of this thread.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
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