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Some concerns about homeopathy

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Esther12, Sep 9, 2017.

  1. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    I think my response to your German stereotypes and appeal to authority apply just as well to your question regarding vets.
     
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  2. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    Well, apparently some regret doing so:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science...r-a-ban-on-vets-offering-homeopathic-remedies
     
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  3. Mrs Sowester

    Mrs Sowester Senior Member

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    Yes, especially those with more money than sense.
    Pets, like people, recover from many things using their immune systems.
     
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  4. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Biscuit Antagonist

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    The thing that occurs to me is that there is a historical element to people's desire to attribute reasons for the Unknown, whether this be religious, magical or any other belief system for that matter. I think we all believe in something and science is one of these forms of logical belief. The scientific method is a lot younger compared to magic and such so sometimes old beliefs do persist.

    What I think with homeopathy is the power of suggestion which is something that has been deployed by monks, ancient priestesses, witch doctors and all sorts of people who try and attribute a reason to what happens to the world around them. The proponents of these things may be motivated by greed or power and be corrupt but equally they may genuinely believe what they say.

    This power of suggestion is variable depending upon the subject matter and to some extent the recipient and also how long the associated belief has been in operation.

    The difference with scientific method though is it applies rules to eliminate bias and evolve ideas based on previous knowledge.

    Faith is something completely different it tends to be mostly a fixed set of ideas that have to be adhered to....this is where homeopathy resides I think. I think what's interesting is how some faiths do adapt to scientific knowledge whereas some steadfastly refuse to accept scientific evidence that prove or disprove certain things. I guess a treatment is more difficult to argue that it's a metaphor?

    Either way the lack of evidence itself does not disprove something, but it does help show what is more likely. All scientific studies are like this if you are bring a pure statistician.

    If homeopathy is faith based as I suspect, I respect that like any other faith. However that does not mean I have to believe it or appreciate it being preached to me without any comeback .....I find the preaching element of it quite offensive, as I would the intrusion for any faith based door knocker.

    I don't think it's possible to convince people who seek comfort from their faith to dismiss their ideas based on science, but preaching faith should not really disrupt the ultimate goal of finding a scientific cure
     
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  5. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Proponents and aides for the pharmaceutical companies hate homeopathy more than anything. Because it works. For a few unfortunate animals that could not be helped, how many humans are injured and killed by big pharmas poisons?

    Always knew there was something fishy going on here.
     
  6. AndyPR

    AndyPR Cookies for Tired Sam

    Woohoo, we've hit the Big Pharma jackpot guys! As a shill for them I'm just lounging at home, raking in the money... :rofl:
     
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  7. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    This seems to be a variation of the appeal to authority logical fallacy: if a bad person dislikes something, it must be good.

    There is still no evidence of this claim, and a great deal of evidence that it isn't true. Repeating something doesn't make it any truer.
     
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  8. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    Always funny when homeopathy proponents talk about big pharma. Let's talk about industrial homeopathic manufacturer Boiron and its revenue...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiron
     
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  9. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda thebiochemcorner.com

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    Someone wanted me to get homeopathy treatment, so I looked into the subject a bit.

    The theory:
    'Like cures like'

    As I understand it, healthy people were given high doses of a substance, like phosphorus, potassium or some toxin.
    Then the symptoms they developed from these substances were documented. When a person with a disease has certain symptoms, these symptoms are compared to the 'induced from a substance' symptoms. Then you get treated with the substance that induced symptoms in healthy people that are similar to your disease symptoms.

    But this substance is given in an extremely diluted form.


    A possible mechanism:
    So I think the idea behind this might be to get the body to produce an anti-reaction.

    Someone might have high blood calcium for example. The body has certain ways of reacting to that.

    High blood calcium lowers parathormone levels. Parathormone generally works to increase calcium with higher vitamin D activation, more calcium-/phosphate-resorption from the bones, more phosphorus excretion by the kidneys,.. So the lower parathormone doesn't raise calcium anymore.

    High blood calcium also causes an increase in calcitonin. Calcitonin acts to lower blood calcium by reducing calcium resorption from the bones and excreting more calcium via kidneys.

    So the body has mechanisms in place to counteract/react to too high or low levels of certain substances. I could imagine homeopathy tries to use this effect by giving in a very small dose of (example) calcium, which hopefully doesn't raise the calcium further, but stimulates the body's reaction system.

    Vaccines might use a similar mechanism, stimulating a helpful immune response with a very small dose of a virus? (I don't know much about how vaccines work).
    I don't know wether the body's other systems work that way though, reacting to a small amount of a substance with a positive counteraction. I don't have any personal experience with homeopathy either.




    Also, I would avoid taking toxic substances, there might still be a difference taking a mineral the body normally works with or a toxin. I wouldn't expect the effect to go as far as to cure ME/CFS, maybe it can influence certain symptoms positively.
     
  10. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Oh boy. laminitis. I have seen a few. It has many causes and is very difficult to treat.
     
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  11. Mrs Sowester

    Mrs Sowester Senior Member

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    Only it isn't giving anyone a very small dose @PinkPanda it is giving them water. The only thing a little bit of water is going to cure people of is being a little bit thirsty.
     
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  12. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member

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    Hum, there's no water anymore in homeopathic pills. They are completely dehydrated, don't know how water memory could work with no water at all...
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
  13. Mrs Sowester

    Mrs Sowester Senior Member

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    So this nonsense doesn't even come in liquid form? Wow. So how much active ingredient is in these pills?
     
  14. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Depends on the dilution I assume.
     
  15. TiredSam

    TiredSam The wise nematode hibernates

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    Your question being how can vets, Germans and the royal family all be wrong? I'm still thinking about it. It's a tricky one, I'll grant you that.
     
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  16. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda thebiochemcorner.com

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    I agree, that is a problem. Maybe there is some mechanism that explains how a substance can still be somewhat bioactive in that degree of dilution, maybe there isn't. I don't really know.
     
  17. Skycloud

    Skycloud Senior Member

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    In addition to what Mrs Sowester just said we have calcium in our diet anyway, so a very small dose isn't going to make any difference.

    It is the case that some dilutions of homeopathic prescriptions do contain a tiny amount of the original substance.

    I used some homeopathy when my children were small. It was useful I think because of placebo. Placebo is one of the tricks of the trade of being a parent.
     
  18. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member

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    Anyone heard of rock therapy? It's unlikely you have coz I just made it up.

    What you do is put a large and, most importantly, quite heavy rock on your foot (or any other part of your body, but it must be your body not someone elses), and then wait until you are in unbearable pain. Then you take the rock off, and experience the most wonderful relief, which shows the therapy works.

    Caution - Don't do this!!! (you're not trained in this therapy and probably haven't bought my special scientifically developed ergonomic rock therapy rock yet - only $1599/lb not including postage)
     
  19. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    There is something called the "caregivers placebo effect" It's the owners perception that the animal is getting better, the pet more loving attention, hypervigilance about the pets symtoms, etc.

    http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2012/11/ca...-ineffective-therapy-is-working-when-it-isnt/

    There are many studies that show homeopathy does not work on farm animals. I will post citations on this later as I am too tired, atm.
     
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  20. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

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    They aren't defending homeopathy because it makes sense.

    They are defending it because it allows them to feel better. It gives them the sensation of being able to do something about a health problem. It's also pretty convenient: no bad taste, undesired side effects, drug interactions, refills, prescriptions, et cetera.

    Pharmaceuticals cause many deaths every year due to side effects or medical error. The evidence base is probably often biased and exaggerates benefit while downplaying risks.Healthcare has become all about profits.

    I'm not surprised that homeopathy is particularly popular in German and French speaking areas. These are the same areas (my confirmation biasd is showing a bit) that have the worst attitudes towards poorly understood or complex health problems for historical psychoanalytic reasons. One can see why certain patients try to avoid doctor visits.

    I'm sure homeopathy would not be nearly as popular if medicine offered truly effective and safe treatments for all conditions and treated all patients well.

    Nobody feels the need to have a "homeopathic plaster cast" for a broken leg.
     
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