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Some concerns about homeopathy

Hutan

Senior Member
Messages
1,099
Location
New Zealand
I also don't want to divert the subject from homeopathy fun thing!:)
I'm late to this fun thing.


From wikipedia: about 50% of uncomplicated UTIs will recover without treatment within a few days or weeks.
I find it very hard to believe that taking a few homeopathic pills can reduce inflammation in a matter of hours.
But it has cured me of cystitis, in a way that cannot be put down to the natural process of healing. It went in a matter of hours after many days of agony. I took one pill and hour till it eased off and soon it was gone entirely.

I had a bad UTI when I was travelling. Felt like I was dying, feverish, middle of the night in a foreign country (it was Germany actually) and didn't know where to find a doctor, couldn't control urination - and had an upcoming flight half way around the world.

I drank many cups of chamomile tea - and recovered! Brenda, if you took your hourly pills with water, then maybe it was quite a similar approach. I think there is evidence that flushing your system can help recovery by reducing the bacteria in the urinary tract. And as wikipedia reports, time and the immune system alone can be enough.


That week I mentioned in the post above 1 week no sleep AT ALL! I mean not even an hour. One of my eye lid closed, I could not speak well. I was like a zombie that week and my friend insisted for this reason.
A week of no sleep at all isn't sustainable. It probably wouldn't have mattered what you did that night, you would have slept. Maybe you had an alcoholic drink as well?

Though it made a huge difference to my life, like one member mentioned above I did not even think it was that important to sleep that much, until that horrid week.
Perhaps after that scary experience you were more conscious of making time to sleep?


Shall we discuss the science behind why hot meal cooked by someone who take care of me cures my insomnia?:p

I imagine it works in the same way as when people eat a big Christmas Dinner and then snooze the afternoon away. I'm not sure what is going on there, but I imagine the body wants to focus on digesting rather than keeping alert to hunt and gather another turkey and plum pudding.


Re the 'the Royal Family, German people and some vets use homeopathy' argument:
In Thailand, the Royal family and people in general including, no doubt, some vets set up a spirit house along side their own house to house spirits that could cause problems if not appeased. Offerings are given to keep the spirits happy.
spirit house.jpg


(No offence to Thai people who are no more weird than anyone else. I picked Thailand just because it has a royal family and is a long way from Europe and the US. Generally, it's a lot easier to spot weird ideas when they are held by people who 'aren't like us'.)

I remember when we opened a bridge in another Asian country, part of the ceremony involved tying young chickens by their legs to individual tiny rafts of split bamboo and setting them on to the river running under the bridge. Off they bobbed, until the turbulence of the rapids overturned the rafts. This was done to appease the spirits that might damage the bridge. As far as the local people were concerned, this was 'evidence based practice' because when the ceremony had not been done quickly enough on new bridges in the past, those bridges had been damaged in storms.

My point (and I know it's not an original one) is that people believe all sorts of stuff. Belief, even widespread belief, doesn't make things true.

I'm amazed and appalled that the NHS funds homeopathy and is happy to send people off with a sugar pill but often doesn't give people diagnosed with CFS proper screening tests for alternative diagnoses. That's when all this isn't so fun.
 

erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
I'm curious why that you got it free is an important point, I'm glad you didn't lose any money but someone paid for it ? I suspect most GPs have no expectation of it having any effect beyond placebo but prescribe it anyway as it doesn't cost very much, makes the recipient satisfied that they got a treatment and keeps them away for a few weeks.

Current NHS position:
NHS set to ban homeopathy for patients because it is 'not evidence based and any benefits are down to placebo'

Tax payer paid for it. The remedies are cheap, but paying the consultation fees to the homeopathic doctors at the homeopathic hospitals must be costly. Up keeping this service costs to NHS. It was an NHS hospital built by the Princes' Trust. (Dearst Charles that is:cautious:)

Unfortunately this service is not there anymore, it is altered and they try to get rid of it; no wonder why when reading the opinions in this thread. The responsibility is on people who vehemently opposes homeopathy. If they are comfortable with its complete abolition there's nothing we positive homeopathic experienced people can do.

The pressures are there, and they are strong.

In my experience establishments can create evidence if they really want to implement or remove services...

Isn't it funny that some vaccination services are compulsory and seriously encouraged by the NHS as opposed to homeopathy which is based on the idea of vaccination.
 

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
Isn't it funny that some vaccination services are compulsory and seriously encouraged by the NHS as opposed to homeopathy which is based on the idea of vaccination.
Vaccinations are a proven therapy. The same can't be said for homeopathy. If the treatments worked you can bet that the British gov't and the Canadian gov't would be on board with their use as it would substantially lower the cost of medical care in our countries.
 

Wonko

Senior Member
Messages
1,467
Location
The other side.
Homeopathy is based on a misunderstood idea of vaccination. not on vaccination. It added to that basic misunderstanding by introducing the idea/practise of extreme dilution.

edit.....it appears, according to wikipedia, that I may be wrong, about the timing of the modern epoch of homeopathy. According to wikipedia the homeopathic use of "innoculations" predates "modern" medicines (vaccines) by over 100 years, and the idea of vaccines may in fact have been lifted from homeopathic practitioners, not the other way around.

IF this is the case I am puzzled as to why none of the exponents of homeopathy on this thread challenged me, or any of the other people of the same view, on this, using such easily "verifiable" information.

Don't get me wrong, my position hasn't changed, it's just I may have got the odd fact wrong.
 
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erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
A week of no sleep at all isn't sustainable. It probably wouldn't have mattered what you did that night, you would have slept. Maybe you had an alcoholic drink as well?

I thought I stated and was fully aware of this -that not being able to sleep for a whole week is not and was not sustainable for me. And in such a unsustainable state you even thought that I could manage to drink any alcoholic drinks? I was not even able to carry a conversation. I might even started to hallucinate a bit, seriously confused. Could not open one eye at all. No! Absolutely I was not drinking that week. It is strange that you might even thought that was a possibility.

I was very very scared. All my GP was suggesting or actually all she could do was giving me sleeping pills. I was not to use them with alcohol anyhow. The pills didn't help and I stopped taking them in the end and still no sleep for 4 days.

Perhaps after that scary experience you were more conscious of making time to sleep?

I was making plenty of time to sleep that week, especially after the first full night without sleep and it was not happening, I was desperate I took the remedy, the one in the sachet and sleeplessness had just lifted. After this I continued with the pills in the tube that homeopath had given. After this I did not need to make time to sleep it just happened very naturally. I think you are assuming things.

I imagine it works in the same way as when people eat a big Christmas Dinner and then snooze the afternoon away. I'm not sure what is going on there, but I imagine the body wants to focus on digesting rather than keeping alert to hunt and gather another turkey and plum pudding.

I don't know what you're talking about there. I never experience anything like this myself. I don't eat big meals in general, including Christmas meals. I always hated the turkey, the pud etc. It's not my type of eating, that stodgy stuff. I answered that bit earlier anyway. The point was I had to rush to my own house as I had to sleep after taking the remedy. I was a dinner guest in a friends house. I did not eat a big meal.

My point (and I know it's not an original one) is that people believe all sorts of stuff. Belief, even widespread belief, doesn't make things true.

I mentioned earlier in my replies that I do not believe in anything. I reject believing. Sorry maybe I'm not very articulate. So again this assumption is not valid for me. I wanted to mention it.

I'm amazed and appalled that the NHS funds homeopathy and is happy to send people off with a sugar pill but often doesn't give people diagnosed with CFS proper screening tests for alternative diagnoses. That's when all this isn't so fun.

I'm sure you are. You don't even remotely care that it helps some. It is not fun at all either.
 
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erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
Vaccinations are a proven therapy. The same can't be said for homeopathy. If the treatments worked you can bet that the British gov't and the Canadian gov't would be on board with their use as it would substantially lower the cost of medical care in our countries.

Are they? My nephew had seizures shortly after his MMR and had to have very urgent medical care. He had very serious health issues after the vaccination. To the point of disability. But some might suggest that this is again another coincidence. Why not? We live in the world of coincidences, aren't we?

I would really love to bet on if homeopath proven to be worked that British gov't and the Canadian gov't would be on board with the use of homeopathic medicine, using it substantially and lowering the cost of medical care in our countries. I really would.

I don't even need to bet on that our governments are not interested in lowering the costs, or, giving substantial cures to the sick.

Call me cynical but, multinational pharmaceutical companies are big business have huge ties with governments. Business is business they are very interested in staying in business. Curing people are not going to sell the product. Curing is not sustainable for these companies.

Come on guys, do you still believe in governments health services? After all what we've ME sufferers go through?
 
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erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
Homeopathy is based on a misunderstood idea of vaccination. not on vaccination. It added to that basic misunderstanding by introducing the idea/practise of extreme dilution.

I don't think it was based on a misunderstood idea but based on the idea itself. However, it does not use the organic/ inorganic ingredients of vaccination. I think dilution is not a misunderstanding, it is a different means of using the idea by choice. I don't know what this choice is based on. As I mentioned earlier, I find it very hard to believe in water having memory. If this really is true, how on earth it can be proven?
 
Messages
1,478
Are they? My nephew had seizures shortly after his MMR and had to have very urgent medical care. He had very serious health issues after the vaccination. To the point of disability. But some might suggest that this is again another coincidence. Why not? We live in the world of coincidences, aren't we?

I would really love to bet on if homeopath proven to be worked that British gov't and the Canadian gov't would be on board with the use of homeopathic medicine, using it substantially and lowering the cost of medical care in our countries. I really would.

I don't even need to bet on that our governments are not interested in lowering the costs, or, giving substantial cures to the sick.

Call me cynical but, multinational pharmaceutical companies are big business have huge ties with governments. Business is business they are very interested in staying in business. Curing people are not going to sell the product. Curing is not sustainable for these companies.

Come on guys, do you still believe in governments health services? After all what we've ME sufferers go through?

Well the NHS may be slowly being privatised but I think it's got a long way to go before pharmaceutical companies are calling the shots and pushing ineffective treatments that cost a packet. it's not about making money in the NHS it's about saving money. That is how the BPS Crew have made their reputations... as authorities that endorse policies to allow ministers to cut or freeze funding yet retain jobs.

I'm sure sleaze goes on but not at the level that is suggested
 

erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
Well the NHS may be slowly being privatised but I think it's got a long way to go before pharmaceutical companies are calling the shots and pushing ineffective treatments that cost a packet. it's not about making money in the NHS it's about saving money. That is how the BPS Crew have made their reputations... as authorities that endorse policies to allow ministers to cut or freeze funding yet retain jobs.

I'm sure sleaze goes on but not at the level that is suggested

Well, why privatize NHS? What is the objective there?

How are they saving the money? What are they doing for this? Employing more managers than actually medical staff? Or just by reducing the services to the patients? Take your pick...
 

skipskip30

Senior Member
Messages
237
Is it? If it is as you are suggesting can you explain why please?

Because there are hundreds of scientific studies on vaccines. Th effectiveness is proven over and over again. We understand the percentage of people they will help and to what degree. We also understand that some people with be adversely affected because nothing is perfect. We know this because it's proven by the scientific meathod repeatedly.

The effects of them are plain to see by anyone. Have you come across many people with smallpox or polio lately?
 
Messages
1,478
Well, why privatize NHS? What is the objective there?

How are they saving the money? What are they doing for this? Employing more managers than actually medical staff? Or just by reducing the services to the patients? Take your pick...
I was not endorsing them privatising the NHS or saying that they are doing things right,just that pharmaceutical influence for a state run heálth service is not as you painted it...if you said, that they should put more tax payers money in and pay for more nurses and less psychiatrists that tell lies about cost savings, then yes we would be in agreement. They could also save money on expensive consultant fees by training more junior doctors and incentivising the training as well as making the working hours more realistic too.

I believe they vaccinate people not because it is a big pharma conspiracy, but because it works and is cheaper in the long run than treating sick people....cost saving is the motivation.
 

erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
Because there are hundreds of scientific studies on vaccines. Th effectiveness is proven over and over again. We understand the percentage of people they will help and to what degree. We also understand that some people with be adversely affected because nothing is perfect. We know this anbecause it's proven by the scientific meathod repeatedly.

The effects of them are plain to see by anyone. Have you come across many people with smallpox or polio lately?

You are right absolutely right about smallpox, polio and probably more. But this will not stop me questioning the effectiveness, especially effectiveness of other vaccines too, as well as questioning the homeopathy.

I simply can not believe in sweeping statements like "We know this anbecause it's proven by the scientific meathod repeatedly." So many changes occurred in medicine. The changes made, as proven repeated scientific methods were not actually accurate.

Especially I do not believe in any establishment including science. The word believe here, I use here is particularly difficult to explain to unquestioning. There is this "religion" like belief in science by some, relying on science without questioning is a no go area for me. And I'm sorry but "nothing is perfect" explanation is very upsetting for me. Have you come across my nephew recently? Or kids like him are disabled by vaccines?
 

skipskip30

Senior Member
Messages
237
I'm very sorry your nephew is disabled, whether it was caused by the vaccine or not. Some people die from bad reations to vaccines but the benefits outweigh the risk when you take the country or the world as a whole.

I'm not going to reply again on this because it is pointless.
 
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erin

Senior Member
Messages
885
I was not endorsing them privatising the NHS or saying that they are doing things right

Yes, I know. I was just asking the question because I was wondering your opinion why do you think they are privitizing it.

,just that pharmaceutical influence for a state run heálth service is not as you painted it...

How do the multinational pharmaceutical companies survive do you think? I'm sure you are aware that they are huge, very powerful companies. Where are they selling their products? To individuals? You need an NHS doctor to prescribe it in the UK. Private prescriptions are negligible. This is the case in many countries and their NHS.

if you said, that they should put more tax payers money in and pay for more nurses and less psychiatrists that tell lies about cost savings, then yes we would be in agreement. They could also save money on expensive consultant fees by training more junior doctors and incentivising the training as well as making the working hours more realistic too.

I definitely say things like this, I was not come across in this thread maybe.

Since you think the above, where is the "saving" in the NHS that you've mentioned earlier then?

I believe they vaccinate people not because it is a big pharma conspiracy, but because it works and is cheaper in the long run than treating sick people....cost saving is the motivation.

I find it hard to believe this. But I'm more on usual "prescribing conspiracy" when it comes to not saving. But yes, vaccination too. Not necessarily works. Especially pneumonia, flu and some new vaccines are not very effective. They are used in aging and immune deficient population extensively and highly profitable to some big pharmaceuticals.
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
There is this "religion" like belief in science by some, relying on science without questioning is a no go area for me.
I quite agree that relying on science without questioning is fairly pointless. But the thing about science is that you can question it. In fact scientists are allowed to tear each other's ideas to shreds if they can, it is actively encouraged. It is the only "belief" if you must call it that, that doesn't require faith. You can ask for something to be demonstrated or proven, and refuse to accept it until it is. You can change your ideas to reflect the latest evidence. No faith or belief required, no loyalty demanded.

Like you, I don't believe in anything, and don't like being told to believe in anything. That's why I hate homeopathy and love science.
 

TigerLilea

Senior Member
Messages
1,147
Location
Vancouver, British Columbia
Or kids like him are disabled by vaccines?
Do we get rid of, say, antibiotics, because some people have a reaction to them? Some people die from taking them. However, we would never get rid of antibiotics because for a very large percentage of the population they are a life saver. The same goes for vaccines. Sadly, there are that small percentage such as your nephew who are harmed by them. But at the end of the day life threatening illnesses such as Small Pox, Polio, Chicken Pox, Mumps, etc. are very rare today because of vaccines.
 

skipskip30

Senior Member
Messages
237
I quite agree that relying on science without questioning is fairly pointless. But the thing about science is that you can question it. In fact scientists are allowed to tear each other's ideas to shreds if they can, it is actively encouraged. It is the only "belief" if you must call it that, that doesn't require faith. You can ask for something to be demonstrated or proven, and refuse to accept it until it is. You can change your ideas to reflect the latest evidence. No faith or belief required, no loyalty demanded.

Like you, I don't believe in anything, and don't like being told to believe in anything. That's why I hate homeopathy and love science.

Science is a beautiful thing, flawed in some cases but beautiful.