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Sodium salicylate inhibits mast cell degranulation

Discussion in 'Mast Cell Disorders/Mastocytosis' started by Violeta, May 4, 2014.

  1. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Sherlock, It's funny, I knew when I was taking niacin last month that it causes mast cell degranulation, and I was doing it to release histamines and avoid histamine build up, but all of a sudden it had a new meaning. After a while I realized it was making my sore throat so much worse and quit taking it. I realize calcium is part of the cause of mast cell degranulation, and then there's usually something else involved, so I have to find out what else is involved when taking niacin. Strange. I'll google that with the PGD2 that you mention.
  2. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Maybe the throat effect was from leukotrienes. Have you tried using a boswellia to inhibit leukotriene synthesis, then take niacin afterward to try and deplete histamine?

    Btw, I did try boswellia (apart from niacin) to see if that increased my breathing capacity, but it did nothing. Maybe I'll sometime double up the dose and try it again .
  3. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    I could be wrong but I think lemon juice and baking soda is having a positive effect on excess lactic acid. Twice now, I was having a 'burn' from overuse of particular muscle and our concoction stopped the burn. Completely.

    Could that be a game changer for many here?
    Gondwanaland, MeSci and Violeta like this.
  4. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Hi, Lou. My impression is that sodium salicylate is mainly useful if a person has an allergy to aspirin (acetyl salicylic acid) - you still get the salicylate.

    But you might try just baking soda PWO, or even Pre WorkOut, since that is what might be helping you. However, if you take too much there is a very strong laxative effect. It's interesting that you've had such a rapid benefit.

    Researcher Paul Light has a paper somewhere about how CFS and Fibro can lead to more acid levels of various kinds in muscle after workout. I can post his graph if you'd like.
  5. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Thanks, Sherlock

    Sorry, what is PWO?

    So, aspirin alone will inhibit mast cell degranulation? Degranulation is a distinct, if separate from excess lactic acid, problem for me as well.

    Also, if you'd give your opinion on this: would you worry much about the aluminum in baking soda. I think it may even help with brain fog, but I don't won't to invite Alziemer's in the process.
  6. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Lou, PWO = post workout

    Aspirin is prescribed by docs to lessen flush from prescription niacin given to heart patients. That works by inhibiting production of prostaglandin D2 in mast cells. Violetta's citation talked also about it inhibiting degranulation. Maybe almost any anti-iflammatory does likewise.

    Degranulation is not completely understood.

    Aluminum? No, that was mostly a false alarm from Bob's Red Mill. (I had even phoned them back when.) But I would not take baking powder, which does have a lot a aluminum.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
    Lou likes this.
  7. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Not to beat a dead horse, but I've confused the issue again. It is not a potato starch source of aluminum(didn't actually know it had any) that concerns me, but rather baking soda, which indeed contains aluminum. It is the baking soda, not baking powder, that I'm currently taking.

    If it seemed to help brain fog and lactic acid buildup would you personally worry about a half teaspoon of baking soda daily? I'm sure you've heard of the link between aluminum and Alzheimer's disease.

    I'd really appreciate any opinions out there regarding this. Thanks.
  8. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    @Lou, for an idea of why I think that researching can lead in circles, take a look at Table 1 here:
    http://www.biotrend-usa.com/archive/file/content/biotrend-reviews/BTReview_Jan2010_Mastcell.pdf

    It lists the receptors that can trigger mast cell activation (either sudden degranulation, which can be only of certain pre-made/stored products that mast cells make, like histamine -- or else just secreting other products that are made as needed, like PGD2).

    The ligands are what activate the receptors. They include the histamine, serotonin and leukotrienes that MCs make. So MCs can be set off by other MCs. the same goes for some proteases (enzymes that break down proteins, such as in joints -- that is what is bedeviling me lately).

    All of those starting with Fc are activated by antibodies.

    All those starting with TLR are triggered by things like bacteria (the coating called LPS that Violetta was talking about) and so on.

    Then look at all the remaining ones. Adrenalin from stress, e.g.

    Then some work the other way and inhibit of mast cell activity.

    Chemokines are chemical that can attract cell slike MCs to an aream to take up temporary or remanent residence. MC can live for many months.

    Eosinophils are others immune cells that can degranulate.

    Substance P makes pain.

    On and on :)
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  9. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Sorry, I should have been more clear that baking soda contains only a little of aluminum. Bob's Red Mill created a false stir that brands other than their own contain a lot, but that is untrue. MD/researcher Neil Barnard also does presentations on Alzheimer's too, and I believe he is only concerned about the baking powder, not baking soda. He also suggest avoiding aluminum cookware, saying that we don't know for sure, but it's an easy thing to give up and use other frypans.

    Also as regards anti-Alzherimers approaches, he suggests that copper pipes are possibly bad, because of leeching into water leading to excess amounts consumed. Then again, you can find researchers suggesting that copper deficiency leads to artery disease. It goes round and round.

    I would not personally worry about about 1/2 tsp of baking soda per day, or double that.
    Lou likes this.
  10. Sherlock

    Sherlock bicarb for exercise recovery and taming candida

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    Here's one on niacin flushing, which expands this even more:
    http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/327/3/665.full

    And now, since my right wrist is in bad shape today (probably from MCs) and I've been resultingly typing like a baboon, I think I will log off and rest it.
  11. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Lou, aspirin by itself causes mast cell degranulation. When mixed with baking soda it inhibits mast cell degranulation. Are you able to get Bob's Red Mill baking soda? iherb carries it. No aluminum. You are just mixing the baking soda with lemon, though, right? I don't know how much salicylic acid is in a lemon, but that's great that the combination is working for you.
    Lou likes this.
  12. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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  13. Tiger Lily 813

    Tiger Lily 813 Senior Member

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    Hi there, not sure this is the best place for this question, but I took alka seltzer gold (just trying to keep myself alkaline in general, I was planning on doing this regularly for awhile, but only tried it this once so far) a few hours after eating- did not have any stomach pain before taking, but got a lot of stomach pain/bloating after having taken it.

    I was wondering if anyone has any clue why I may have had that reaction? I want to be sure I understand what happened.

    My only thought is even though it was a few hrs after eating, I may have still been digesting a bit (I take forever). But beyond that I have no idea... Totally confused with the alternating of Hcl and baking soda products.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  14. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I've been taking sodium bicarbonate without the lemon juice for about 2 years. I started because I assumed that I had acidosis, and for whatever reason it has helped to improve my symptoms along with dietary change and other supplements (see my profile info section).

    I know it's the sod bic as I have tried reducing/stopping it twice and symptoms have worsened, improving again when I restarted it.
  15. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I am fairly sure that no sodium bicarbonate sold for consumption in the UK contains aluminium. The one I buy in Boots pharmacy is 100% sodium bicarbonate.

    I take 2 teaspoonfuls a day with no ill effects - quite the contrary! :)
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    AFAIK the people who take HCl have - or believe they have - low stomach acid (hypochlorhydria).

    I believe that I have plenty of stomach acid, and as a vegan I probably don't need as much as omnivores. I believe that I have acidosis, so take sodium bicarbonate. It certainly helps with some things!
    Tiger Lily 813 likes this.
  17. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Study is on rat cells in vitro. May have no implications for humans in vivo.

    Certainly not relevant enough for me to act on - or even read!:D
  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Quercetin is high in salicylates... I've learned it the hard way...
    Will try the lemon + bicarb soon, fearing a kickback from the lemon (I don't tolerate vitamin C)...
    Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion!
  19. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Wonder if you could use vinegar instead of lemon juice, if the idea is to use acid+alkali?
  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thanks for the suggestion. Perhaps white vinegar? I am currently intolerant to fermented stuff.

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