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sodium bicarb, acidosis, and my BP went up a tad ?? and Sjogrens. :)

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by BadBadBear, May 30, 2013.

  1. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    So I had fasting blood work last week, and it showed a low-moderate level of acidosis (anion gap = 19.9). I have other fasting blood work that shows my anion gap as high. So I decided to alkalyze... I stopped eating kefir and cut down on decaf, and am substituting more alkaline forming foods. I also decided to add a pinch of bicarb and some Calm magnesium powder to my twice-daily electrolyte mix. I have been doing this for a week now...

    And voila, for the last few days, my diastolic blood pressure has popped up a notch. It usually runs in the 50's - and I feel crappy - and for the last few days it's been a rock solid 63. I know it's not a HUGE improvement, but I do feel better.

    It has me wondering if my acidosis could be from renal tube acidosis, and by alkalyzing, maybe my body is wasting less water trying to deal with it. Or maybe this is just a blip on the radar, and it will go back down at some point.

    I have a new theory that almost all of my stuff could possibly be caused by Sjogrens - which my uncle has, and I have had the dry symptoms from it for years and years. I am not diagnosed, but I talked to my doc today about heading down that path. When I was reading up on it, I came across info on renal tube acidosis and interstitial nephritis being common kidney issues with it. Also the info about it attacking the lining of the stomach and causing gastric atrophy. Basically, Sjogrens would explain every symptom I have.

    So I'm curious if anyone else has tried bicarb/alkalyzing and noticed any results - positive or negative? This lab rat is curious. :) Or any thoughts about Sjogrens - on topic or not - are appreciated, too.

    Thanks,
    Michelle
     
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  2. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Yes, I love it. For one, baking soda has made me fairly bulletproof to sugar. By changing the gut pH, it seems to have put candida (or whatever bacteria might mimic it) back into its place.

    (MSM had somewhat similar effect, but not as powerful.)

    A pinch is not nearly enough. I have worked up to 1/2 teaspoon at a time. Too much can have drastic consequences. I've probably taken 1/2 tsp 4 or 5 times in a morning, until the ph strip turns very blue.

    I sometimes use baking soda post exercise, too. It seems to help recovery.

    Also, for first thing in the morning, a glass of lemon juice and water is refreshing with the benefit of also being alkalizing.

    I briefly looked into alkalizing drops, I forget what it's made of but I rejected it as possibly unsafe. That's a shame because the baking soda should be taken only on an empty stomach, which means there is only a limited window in a day to use it.


    Your BP might have risen from all the sodium, some react to Na and some don't. There is controversy on Na and BP.
     
  3. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Sherlock - thanks for your post!! Wow, you do take a lot of it. I may try working my way up higher and see how I feel. So far, I am feeling better on just the 1/4 tsp or so that I'm taking per day - and yes, mixing it with either lemon or lime water. :D I had bloodwork done Friday and it showed that my body is out of acidosis now, which I think is great.

    Have you ever tried potassium bicarb??

    I am noticing that my saliva has a 'sweeter' taste to it, and that itself is less drying - which helps since I'm always drinking more water than I should (I have to try to cut back to a gallon a day and it's a struggle).

    The sodium should not be affecting me much - I already consume around 5000 mg a day for my low blood pressure, and the bicarb only adds another 300 or so mg. It seems like the baking soda alkalinity itself is having some effect.

    To me, this study is very relevent about why I want to treat acidosis:

    Low-grade metabolic acidosis may be the cause of sodium chloride-induced exaggerated bone resorption.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18052757

    This one, too:
    Alkaline salts to counteract bone resorption and protein wasting induced by high salt intake: results of a randomized controlled trial.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23027921

    Granted they were using potassium bicarb as the buffer, reducing the loss of glucocorticoids is especially of interest to me, because I am low in those. I am going to order some potassium bicarb & trial that as well... :cat:
     
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  4. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    No, I haven't. I do get a lot of K from bananas and potatoes. Is there any other advantage?

    Most days I take 1/2 tsp x 2. Plus taking days off now and again - especially on days when the taste of it seems not-so-appealing.

    For pre-exercise, before sustained and vigorous activity, it's used out in the world in large doses (3 tsp?) to help prevent buildup of lactic acid.

    I got some pH test strips for urine testing from ebay, maybe $5. Then cut them into narrow pieces. If you are in the blue every day, then that should seemingly also affect the whole body. But I seem to maybe recall that rapid, large swings in pH might result in kidney stones.

    I'd thought maybe the baking soda reduced polyuria, but it's hard to say because I change so often. I thiught the same aws you, "maybe my body is wasting less water trying to deal with it". It hasn't affected my BP, which I want to be lower.

    So low corticosteroids results in bone loss? Yet people on high dose prednisone get bone loss, etc.

    I hope you post back with results of your experiments :) If you start a baking soda club here, don't forget to invite me. I wish I'd been doing this even pre-CFS.

    Btw, histamine from overly active mast cells is also implcated in osteoporosis. At one point, I thought that diphenhydramine reduced polyuria.
     
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  5. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    The main advantage for me is I need to take about 10-20 MEQ a day of potassium to offset losses from Florinef... I ordered some potassium bicarb from a brewing supply house and it's about $15 for a pound of it. I need to fully work out the dosage, but I expect it will be more cost effective that ordering K-Klor from Canada. If my GI tract gets along with it, it will be a good deal. If not, I'll feed it to my plants. :lol:

    Also there's a small study that indicates potassium bicarb may be better for bone health than potassium chloride.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20083724

    Might as well trial it and see what happens...

    I don't know much about prednisone, just that my own blood levels of cortisol are suboptimal (12 for my 8 AM), and my aldersterone is low (hence Florinef), so anything that converves them should help. I had to go off of licorice due to excessive potassium losses... If bicarb will help conserve corticosteriod, that is a big plus for me.

    I will update if I notice anything more about the polyuria issue, etc. I do notice less myalgia over the last week, hopefully that effect will last. I will have to try bicarb before exercise. Really want to try a hike this weekend, so it will be a perfect opportunity.

    I think it's so cool that there's another bicarb person here. :hug: Thanks for posting about it, Sherlock!!
     
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  6. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    BadBadBear Yes! the opportunity to discuss bicarb vis-a-vis CFS is great. Plus exercise, too. I have been ramping up exercise a lot lately. Most things are generally getting better all the time. Yesterday, I went on my bicycle up a trail, maybe 20 minutes uphill to get to the top. I'd have been afraid over the past few years that I might not make it back, but I tried and it was no problem.

    Have you tried the KCl as the salt substitute? (NoSalt brand, for one)

    What's your opinion of the alkalizing drops? That would be great because I could take it throughout the day.

    What about antioxidants and anti-inflammatories before exercise?
     
  7. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    BadBadBear sodium chlorite aka Miracle Mineral Water is the one I'm thinking of


    Also, "Free Yourself From Chronic Fatigue & Fibromyalgia" by Patty Butts is some book talking about pH and CFS, FWIW.

    Also, I have seen pH discussed regarding autoimmunity, though pH is trendy now so it's discussed with regard to everything under the sun.

    You might also be aware that there was a buzz about the B-cell depleting biologic drug Rituximab (RTX) and CFS, though to me it looks like that has fizzled.
     
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    If Julia Newton's research on muscle in CFS is validated then I would expect we routinely move from hyper-acid to hyper-alkaline states and vice versa. Hyper-acidity is what happens after exercise, but hyper-alkalinity is what we have at rest. Its not as simple as just trying to treat this all the time. However the implication is trying to increase alkalinity post-exercise (or any activity?) might be a good idea, while trying to do that at rest is probably not a good idea.

    One implication of this may be that testing blood for acidity etc. might be pointless ... its a measurement at one point in time of something that might move all over the place on its own. Against this view is the issue that the body will at least try to maintain a balanced pH. However the evidence is mounting that we fail to do this after activity, and now of course there is evidence we fail to do this at rest too (though in the opposite direction).

    Anything containing sodium has the potential to raise blood pressure. It may have nothing to do with pH.

    On the other hand pH alters how much oxygen gets released to tissues. Too acidic for too long can be fatal, but too alkaline can greatly reduce energy production capacity. Both effects occur from lack of oxygen, though the mechanisms are different. Direct dumping of oxygen to tissues is higher in acid states, and low in alkaline states. So inducing alkalinity may decrease your oxygen. On the other hand, prolonged acidity suppresses an enzyme needed to release oxygen from blood cells, so again you don't have enough oxygen and can die from lactic acidosis.

    Furthermore treating pH does not necessarily correct the underlying problem ... for all we know it might worsen it in some patients. So do be careful, and pay attention to how you feel.

    I feel muscle acidity post-exercise is an important area of research. Once we understand the mechanisms better I suspect this may lead to useful treaments.
     
  9. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Thanks for the pointer on her studies, it led me to this:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Loss of capacity to recover from acidosis on repeat exercise in chronic fatigue syndrome: a case-control study.
    Loss of capacity to recover from acidosis on repeat exercise in chronic fatigue syndrome: a case-control study.

    But on reading the abstract, I immediately thought that you can get the same results in normals just by restricting oxygen.
    So here is one, very similar, but with heart failure (using the same NMSpectroscopy methodology):
    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/98/18/1886.full

    I skimmed it and see they are positing some mystery cause, but I'm not buying that :) Lack of O2 seems good eoug as a cause, at least after a casual look see.


    And oh yes, here is an inevitable study showing the opposite
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11782647
    Maximal oxygen uptake and lactate metabolism are normal in chronic fatigue syndrome.

    So I'm doing my own test right now, and getting a kick out of typing with weightlifting glves on :) I'm using very long intervals between sets, and baking soda.
     
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Simple lack of oxygen does not explain why our muscle is alkaline at rest, nor why control muscle tissue in vitro (outside of the body i.e. test tube etc.) does not have the same problem - its not too acid from acitivity, or too alkaline at rest. I dont doubt its a factor, but if Julia's research is right (and it needs validation/replication) then there is a problem in the muscle tissue itself. Maintaining good oxygen status is however a strategy already in use ... that is in part the point of exercising below the anaerobic threshold, used by exercise researchers who measure the anearobic threshold via repeat VO2max testing.

    Much of the more interesting Newton research is in the publication pipeline: we are relying on interviews, speeches and a conference presentation mostly. When the details come out in full publications we can assess the impact of this research more accurately.

    One possibility though is that somehow an oxygen starved muscle modifies itself to use less oxygen, and to decrease energy production when oxygen is insufficient. That mechanism might take time to reverse (if its reversible via the muscle itself) so might not show up in in vitro or in vivo testing.

    Current research by JN is aimed at identifying the mechanisms. If we have that we are halfway there to understanding ME in my opinion. One issue JN faces though is that if there is a serious immune or neurological component then isolated muscle will only give us part of the mechanism: its too reductionistic a methodology.

    Contrary evidence is often based on whole body or blood pH etc. The issues appear to be more strongly localized to muscle and brain. As we concentrate more on local problems and not whole body averages we are finding issues.
     
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  11. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    The obvious question then is whether that has been demonstrated by having PWCs exercise while on a high concentration of oxygen.

    I suppose in the end though, I'm mainly focused on my own experience -- which is that once upon a time my muscles just weren't "working right", but now that's mostly abated except for when I'm sick. Since I go in and out of the two conditions, that gives me some perspective.
     
  12. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Oxygen may not help much. The problem is not getting O2 into the blood, its getting it to the tissues. A small amount of O2 can travel in blood without RBCs, but most requires RBC carriage. That can increase under higher O2 concentrations, but whether or not it works will depend on local conditions.

    Acidic mucle will increase oxygen dumping, so in theory just having ME gives us more O2 during activity, but less O2 during rest. Yet it does not increase energy. The mechanism is there for increased O2 dumping, but its not working. This does not mean that increased O2 from a tank or concentrator will have no effect, but it means it wont fix the problem.

    If O2 is the problem, then there must be another mechanism involved. One possibility is failure of microcirculation. However, as I said before, in vitro testing does not show this. Something is wrong with muscle tissue itself. Something that cannot be due to oxygen. What we don't know though is if its multifactorial. It could be muscle metabolism plus oxygen issues.

    I suspect that oxygen supplementation might have some benefit, but how much is the question. I know that supplementation at rest only benefits some patients, though some benefit a lot.

    Hmmm, thinking back on 2,3 bisphosphoglycerate chemistry, I think the average ME patient, most of the time, has alkaline blood. However even going to get a blood test might be enough to make it acidic. This could lead to testing problems. High 2,3 bpg occurs in alkaline states. It improves the oxygen disassociation curve, particular if the surrounding tissue is acidic.

    I do wonder though what effect having the muscle go through excessive acidity and alkalinity in cycles will do. How will the cell respond? What happens to intracellular, paracrine and autocrine signalling? I think this needs research.
     
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  13. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    alex3619 This is interesting atuff, Alex, especially since I have had slower than average recovery for my whole life. However, I haven't found a Newton paper using in vitro CFS myocytes.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Newton JL[Author] cfs

    I've had no interest in reading any more CFS papers for a while, but later today I'll be working through this one: "Abnormalities in pH handling by peripheral muscle and potential regulation by the autonomic nervous system in chronic fatigue syndrome."

    However, I don't see any mention of motor end plates (neuromuscular junctions), which provide the usual mechanism for muscle fatigue. E.g., lift a weight until failure. Then immediately use electrostimulation and the muscle fibers will fire just fine - though you risk injury. The protective limit is imposed not by acute changes in the myocytes themselves, but in the junctions.
     
  14. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Newton's latest research is not yet published I think. Thats why we have to wait and then read the fine print when it comes out.
     
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  15. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Just to be sure, you do know about the powerful laxative effect, right?
     
  16. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    Oh, you did already say that, sorry.

    Out in the world, there is a lot of work on cardiomyocytes and pH, especially in reperfusion after MI, so maybe that's something for me to look into for the meantime.

    Have you personally tried post workout bicarbonate? I've noticed a benefit.
     
  17. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I am taking 10g of bicarb a day (have been for about a year) and it is not having a laxative effect on me. My bowel function has actually normalised since starting this and other gut alkalising dietary changes and supplements.
     
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  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I haven't noticed a significant reduction in polyuria since taking sodium bicarb. Some studies seem to say that sodium bicarb actually increases lactate production, but I'm not quite clear whether this is because it buffers lactic acid, and maybe thereby allows anaerobic (lactate-based) ATP production to continue for longer. It seems very complicated and I tend to get brain-fogged trying to get my head round it.

    I have two types of polyuria, one apparently involving mineral excretion, probably including sodium lactate, and the other being due to an intermittent deficiency in vasopressin which responds well to desmopressin.
     
  19. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    a lot of dental infections can be highly acidic
     
  20. Sherlock

    Sherlock tart cherry etc. for joints, insomnia

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    2 teaspoons at once? You didn't have to build up to that level? AFAIK, that'd be pretty rare and might give you a clue... to something. (I'm assuming you take it on empty stomach.)

    What other supplements do you take to akalize? Minerals?
     

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