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SMP attempt, need advice

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Lotus,

    So which studies do you want to ignore the science of. Hundreds of studies including the pharmacodynamics of cobalamins? That is overwhelming and they all more or less agree. The differences make no practical differences in what we are discussing here.

    Do you want to ignore the studies that link monomethymercury to symptoms? Do you want to ignore the serum halflifes determined in many studies in animals and fish as 71-72 days? How about the studies that measured the serum halflif as the study itself and determined 71-72 days? You want to ignore those? Sure there are studies IN TEST TUBES of reacting mercury to high concentration MeCbl, proving it is possible for them to react but say nothing about in the body combining. The amount of excreted unchanged cobalamin studies, of all forms, is VERY CLEAR. There isn't any wiggle room. 1% remains 24-48 hours after injection. That amounts to 5mg sublingual held for a couple of hours or a 1mg injection. That still amounts to 10mcg availalbe for reactions of ALL sorts, conversion to AdoCbl, reaction with mercury, reactions with folate, etc. Within the constraints of hundreds of prior studies, that means that from 1mg of MeCbl absorbed daily that the amnount of monomethylmercury that can be generated is 1.4 mcg which mathamatically works out to be the amount in 1 -2 grams of fish containing the higher amounts of methyl mercury.

    It is hardly a hypothesis. It is merely a little math putting together the separate data from multiple studies. Now if you can show me where the holes are in my model and why that is not correct I will certainly learn. What studies are you going to change or ignore to come to other conclusions to support it. Right now all I see is a belief in the magical powers of MeCbl, just whisper that potent name and monomethylmercury, which is SPECIFICALLY the only form we are discussing, pours into the tissues in such large amounts so quickly it would have required 210mg of MeCbl to be consumed 100% with zero excreted unchanged in forming that amount of monomethylmercury to casue toxic symptoms. I DON"T BELIEVE IT. That hypothesis would require complete rejection of all those hundreds of papers on 4 topics.
  2. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Hey Sregan,

    Bad memory here at the moment, so take my opinion on this topic with with a grain of salt.

    I think the body holds metals because the methylation cycle is not working. If the methyaltion cycle starts up, one may start dumping metals and this can be tested through a "Doctors Data" metals urine test. I got really grouchy and depressed temporarily when detoxing metals. Pretty sure methylation was a good way to naturally let go metals without the risk of chelators.

    If I did start dumping metals again, I think I would lean towards taking fiber and

    I've had bad luck with chelators personally. The only two that I tolerated, and may have worked for me, were ALA and OSR (which is no longer on the market). The others seem to give me leg cramps and stomach cramps which I relate to depletion of magneisum and other minerals.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I got really grouchy and depressed temporarily...
    The others seem to give me leg cramps and stomach cramps which I relate to depletion of magneisum and other minerals

    In my experience all of these and more could come from low potassium, which commonly occurs when effective methylation gets started. Intially it was considered a sign of red blood cells being made occasionally with CyCbl, HyCbl and folic acid. I haven't seen it mentioned one way or another with folinic acid. WIth MeCbl and L-methylfolate the healing turn on happens very frequently, and often by the 3rd or 4th day low potassium symptoms start appearing.
  4. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Hey Freddd,

    Thanks. I did test low on potassium recently. So that makes sense.

    I'm also guessing that minerals the body needs are pulled by these chelators and that may cause cramps. First thing to go is GI tract motility if I take cilantro or something like it. It is just an observation of my personal situation though.
  5. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Jarod--I've also had the experience of dumping toxic metals while taking the methylation supplements. I was able to confirm this with 2 fecal metals tests, on 2 separate occasions. I will check out the DD urine test and see if that's a cheaper way to check for the toxic metals.

    Whenever this happens, I stop the methylation supps for a few days. I drink lots of lemon water and take NAC or glutathione and eat fruit pectin. That helps me get on top of the symptoms, which can be severe and debilitating.

    It's not unusual for people to dump metals when methylation gets going. I'm glad you were able to confirm this for yourself. It's always good to know for sure what's going on.
  6. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Jarod, thanks for your experience.

    Hmm... so a theoretical scenario: Taking MCbl + MFolate helps the body overcome the Mercury (possibly) methylation block only to have it release more mercury and maybe reestablish the block with the patient now experiencing more mercury than before the SMP attempt.

    Options could be:

    1. Mop up the excess mercury if you can: MCP if it works, Alginate. Capture bile (containing the expelled mercury from the liver due for fecal excretion) with Charcoal or other binder (need to catch a bile dump not just take randomly).

    2. Back off or stop the MCbl and MFolate and wait for symptoms to calm down.

    Andy Cutler seemed to debunk OSR as a non-chelator. Doesn't mean that someone might not have found a substance that might make the body excrete more mercury on it's own like SMP seems to.
  7. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Hiya Dreambirdie,

    Think the urine test was less than a hundred dollars.

    My approach was to keep going and not stop. My interpretation was it was a sign of start-up as freddd calls it. I knew I was dumping metals heavy duty. Startup is kind of like surfing the way I see it. When it is working I'm reluctant to stop.

    However, I had other complications and blew my momentum. It's complicated.

    Slower probably safer, the difference is probably time. Either way may work. It is jsut a matter of knowing if something is working or not. When one starts dumping metals, you know something is working.
  8. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Hi sregan,

    My problems are lead, just for a disclaimer. I know that mercury can be trickier and have more potential concerns for moving around and reacting with Mb12.

    I think capturing bile is good when detoxing metals. I try to do that with fiber, olive oil with a little lemon juice. THe oil helps purge the gallbladder in to the fiber.

    The modified citrus pectin is one of those chelators that gave me cramps. Stomach cramps.

    I have no idea what is the best way. Probably just slow and steady wins the race.

    However, sometimes a reaction can be good. That way I know it is working. :O)

    OK, I haven't followed Dr Cutler.

    I think OSR can increase glutathione quiet a bit, which can help with healing. It has been so long I can't remember how that worked. I thought OSR was doing something good at the time, but it seemed to require a good stomach with low sensitvity to process it the way I remember it now.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sregan,

    In all the discussion, I want to make clear that SOMETHING is happening, with metals, just not with one specific explanation. The catch is if we can describe it accurately we are more likely to distinguish it and treat it better. So HOW, with what sets of symptoms distinguishing them, can we distinguish heavy metal problems from low potassium, and especiallydonut hole folate insufficiency as that is one of the more misunderstood items. So I was under the impression that one wants them to end up in the feces vile the bile. That is the route out of the liver and out of the body. The studies of monomethylmercury specifically specifically show that route with the 71 day serum halflife.

    Please uinderstand that I probably had a big a body load of mercury oasanybody here. I played with mercury as child. My father was a dentist and came home with with clothing contaminated by mercury. I ate swordfish weekly in the winter, lots of tuma and lots of freshwater fish contaminated from coal fired mercury, the ones they warn about now as contaminated. I wasn't given Calomel. They used to roll the amalgam around in their fingers mixing to just that right doughy consistance for packing into the cavity.

    Now for some examples of mercury toxicity for what was supposed to be a safe form that simple food items can break down into more toxic forms. Some of us alive today may have been treated woth calomel as children. The last of it wasn't off the market until 1960 in UK.

    http://www.westonaprice.org/environmental-toxins/beatiful-black-poison
    John M. Scudder, one of the most prominent practitioners of eclectic medicine, described some of the effects that he saw in patients who continued to receive “heroic” doses of calomel even after the onset of swollen gums and salivation: “The mouth feels unusually hot, and is sometimes sensible of a coppery or metallic taste; the gums are swollen, red, and tender; ulcers make their appearance and spread in all directions; the saliva is thick and stringy, and has that peculiar, offensive odor characteristic of mercurial disease; the tongue is swollen and stiff, and there is some fever, with derangement of the secretions. The disease progressing, it destroys every part that it touches, until the lips, the cheeks, and even the bones have been eaten away before death comes to the sufferer’s relief.”46
    Rothstein goes on to elaborate that when a person has taken a toxic dose of calomel, not only do the teeth then become loose, rot, and fall out, but the jaw bones begin to disintegrate in flakes and layers. Parts of the mouth, tongue and palate could also rot away, and in this state one existed for the rest of one’s life—provided one actually survived both the disease and the therapy.47 Even after small doses for a longer period of time—say, six months—the gums would be swollen, eating painful, and teeth loose, if they had not already fallen out.

    Back in the 60's many were on full dentures by 30 years old in England. Being in the health care, including dental business, I found this utterly shocking.
  10. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I met someone recently who was one of the babies that received 50% mercury teething powders between 1940 and the early 1950`s, and the person is not sick, yet I and many others were seriously ill in hospital with some dying, are very sick. Many also played with mercury like me too and have various levels of sickness, some again not sick.

    I am homozygous on CYP1B1 L432V which is involved with Phase 1 Detoxification and MTHFR compound heterozygous which means that these genes were highly likely to be activated due to mercury, rendering me an undermethylator at a very early age and unable to detoxify at Phase 1 effectively. The polymorphisms are what matters not whether one has been exposed to mercury. And even so, the damage received depends on what extent they were and still are, switched on.

    I think we have established that Freddd`s case is not the same as many here, though seems to be similar to a few who have succeeded on his protocol and unfortunately we continue to be left in the dark due to the lack of his genetic profile to help us to figure it out. Others here have found difficulty finding the 99 dollars to pay for this and do not have the benefit of people using their code from iherb giving discounts when purchases are made.

    As for symptoms when toxins are released, particularly mercury, I do indeed know very certainly when mercury has been mobilised in my brain, the effects are severe and unbearable and nothing like the symptoms I have when potassium is low or when I am herxing from the death of bacteria. They are the same symptoms I have whenever I eat cilantro or drink kombucha.

    My mother had her teeth removed in her early 30`s. I was born when she was 29 so perhaps there was another source of mercury for me.
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Brenda,

    My mother had her teeth removed in her early 30`s. I was born when she was 29 so perhaps there was another source of mercury for me

    In the article I posted the link to, it is mentioned that calomel affected children in utero

    I think we have established that Freddd`s case is not the same as many here, though seems to be similar to a few who have succeeded on his protocol and unfortunately we continue to be left in the dark due to the lack of his genetic profile to help us to figure it out. Others here have found difficulty finding the 99 dollars to pay for this and do not have the benefit of people using their code from iherb giving discounts when purchases are made.

    With 23andme going for $99 I will be getting it, but not until I am on medicare, which will be as soon as the various courst cough up the paerwork I need. It will be the first time I'll be covered on medical insurance since the guy ran the red light and gave me the injuries that have kept me out of medical insurance the rest of my life until now. I wasted $200,000 over 20 years attempting to find out what was wrong and be treated by every theory available then, which was basically all the same tired non-working ideas. Consider that much of the field research of all the theories and treatments based on those were wrong. 100% of over 100 physicians NOT ONCE came up with the answer that works. NOT ONE was considering the need for MeCbl, AdoCbl, L-methylfolate and LCF, the Deadlock quartet. They all thought "B12 deficiency on first sight. They all changed their minfds 100% with tests. In other words, all the tests they had were interpreted wrongly. Not one of them was worthwhile. Instead b12 and folate problems they called me names like "alcoholic" and other names which were also 100% wrong.. I have spent well over $300,000 of my earned income solving things this far. And came up ways to overcome partial methylation block, partial ATP block, methyltrap. I've ruined more MeCbl than most people have taken documenting the effect of light on aqeuous MeCbl.

    When 100+ docs with every theory available in the 70s, 80s and 90s being 100% wrong it is clearly an institutional problem, not one blind doc. That made vary clear just how bolixed the interpretation of tests are in all this. They help maintain disease which has become the norm. They have made a complex of more 300 symptoms and signs a mystery disease.

    I will get the test so people can see what it is. You made the best case for getting it despite my misgivings about the interpretation of such tests.

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