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SMP attempt, need advice

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Brenda, I wanted to ask you about 23andme. After looking at the site I might think $99 is the total cost but that seems way to cheap.

    Also if you can offer me any tips on taking the Yucca I would appreciate.
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    sregan The 23&Me test has been dropped down in price to $99 for the past several months. They are doing this to gather more subjects for their research. It really is a good deal. Who knows how long it will last..?
  3. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    sregan

    I take 15 drops with my main meal. I feel better on it.
    sregan likes this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Brenda,

    Finding the balance of all these items is like juggling 13 chain saws. It is a difficult maze to find ones way through. But there are clues. "Neurological Brightening" seems to be the first clue towards significant neurological healing. My experience was that I had been taking a wide assortment of basics, omega3 oils and all that long before I found MeCbl for the first time. I had been taking folic acid and CyCbl for decades and they worked poorly at nbest. However, it was the folate problems driving the whole thing. The CyCbl worked to the limit of the folic acid. I used the term "depleted methylator" as opposed to methylation block, starting in 2003. Now I see them as the same thing. I was however in methyltrap with partial ATP block for 17 years so everything was blocking each other. Good luck.
  5. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Yeah, like pushing ahead when you want to retreat. Same with frequent dose chelation I think. Those that have tried single doses and been hit hard would probably be very reluctant to try again with frequent dosing without some serious reassurance

    In progress...

    Not much of a sales pitch :p Sorry if you had to go through that. It sounds like pure hell.
  6. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Ok to take before bed maybe with dinner? Has it ever disturbed your sleep?
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    As I mentioned in the other thread you started about the SMP (Rich's Simplified Methylation Protocol), Rich and Dr. Neil Nathan's advice was to either lower the dose and/or take a day or more off. I wish I had a doctor who told me to take it easy and slow down. If you push too hard your health will get worse. Again, I don't know what's too hard for you. Only you can know that.
    I can't tell you what doses are right for you, but I would highly recommend you listen to what your body tells you more than anyone else and that includes doctors too. My health has gotten significantly worse from methylation attempts. Maybe you're not in as bad shape as I am and you can "push through". That hasn't worked too well for me. Ever since I got sick 15 years ago I've been trying to "push through" and that's only made my health worse.

    And BTW, my first methylation "attempt" was unintentional. I had been taking the Jarrow B Right b complex for over a year without any problems until they added methylfolate to the formula. So I wasn't even taking any B12 and that still caused major problems. This doesn't happen to everyone, but I've heard from several others who have a hypersensitivity to methylfolate. The symptoms were so bad I thought I had mercury poisoning because I started taking the methylfolate right after a tooth with an amalgam cracked. It took me almost 6 weeks before I figured out what was going on because I had never heard about methylation (I wasn't even a member of Phoenix Rising at the time), but luckily this forum has threads for both chelation and methylation. It was actually a quote by Rich (bless his soul) that clued me in to what was going on:
    ---------
    Hi, Freddd.

    I'm very happy about your epiphany with respect to the effect of folic acid on utilization of methylfolate. I was always puzzled at the very high dosages you were using for Metafolin, while I was hearing from people on the Simplified Treatment Approach that they were having to limit it to much smaller dosages to avoid intolerable detox symptoms. Some people use a wet toothpick to pick up a powdered daily dose, and even that much blows some of them away!

    Best regards,

    Rich
    ---------
    Some people do need higher doses of methylfolate and/or B12, but be aware that they have a synergistic effect. If your symptoms are from overmethylation/overdriving the methylation cycle which is caused by taking too high of a dose and/or too many methyl donors then taking extra methylfolate will make your symptoms worse not better. This is from Rich about that subject:
    --------
    As you know, I have suggested a somewhat different approach to treating the methylation cycle partial block than Freddd has suggested.

    When high dosages of methylfolate and methyl B12 are taken together, the cells are no longer able to control the rate of the methylation cycle, and it becomes overdriven.

    One result of this is a rapid buildup of folates in the cells, because of the rapid production of tetrahydrofolate by the methionine synthase reaction.

    Tetrahydrofolate is readily converted to the forms of folate needed to support DNA and RNA synthesis, and this releases cells from a block at the S phase of the cell cycle.

    They rapidly start dividing, and this produces a strong demand for potassium.

    As Alex has noted, it has been shown that the intracellular potassium levels are low in CFS (likely because of an ATP deficit at the membrane ion pumps, due to mito dysfunction, in turn due to primarily to glutathione depletion), so there is no reserve there.

    The result is that the plasma level of potassium drops, and that accounts for the tachycardia.

    It is notable that hydroxo B12 does not have as severe an effect in your case as does methyl B12. That's because the cells have control of the rate of conversion of hydroxo to methyl B12, and thus have more control of the rate of the methylation cycle.

    Note that another effect of overdriving the methylation cycle is a further drop in glutathione, as less homocysteine is available to go toward cysteine synthesis.

    There seem to be more and more people who are exhibiting effects of overdriving the methylation cycle from taking high dosages of methylfolate and methyl B12 together. I do not recommend this approach.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    --------
    Everyone here is of course free to do whatever they want, follow whichever protocol they like, and take whatever dose they feel is best for them.
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    To put it in other terms, as soon as the L-methylfolate is recognized as active, turn it off fast before you heal. Yup. That is the kind of advice a person who has NEVER healed though these things would say. What I am saying can ONLY be understaood through experience. As "detox" is low potassium and or donut hole folate insufficiency requiring MORE folate instead of less the vast majority of time, and my hypothesis is testable in days rather than years.

    Also, people will never start up the nervous system if it is always intolerable and the same goes for ATP. Keeping a person in partial methylation block becasue it is more comfortable doesn't lead to healing. The longer the delay the less success at healing the CNS neurology. That is WELL validarted in b12 research. More damage becomes permanent the longer treatment is delayed. If I knew 10 years ago what I know now I might have 100% of my feet and leg neurology instead of 5-10%.

    What you are advising might be fine for those with no CNS involvement or body neurological involvement, if you can find any, but for people facing serious and possibly permanent neurological damage, Rich NEVER even suggested that the SMP was suitable for that, and if you go look it up, did say several times that I was dealing with a whole lot of things he wasn't even intending to approach and didn't expect the SMP to do.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Since Rich helped conduct a methylation study on CFS patients using his methylation protocol with low doses of methylfolate, it seems that your definition of "healing" is lacking. 86% of the patients improved and 27% of the patients made a full recovery. We also see methylfolate, glutathione, SAMe, and adenosine levels increased considerably
    http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    This is from Dr. Neil Nathan who ran the study and whose CFS/Fibromyalgia patients were used:
    http://www.prohealth.com/fibromyalgia/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=16138
    The Project Went as Follows

    • I took 30 patients (none of whom were part of the first pilot project), all of whom I had treated with Dr. Teitelbaum’s program, all of whom had made some progress (ranging from 30% to 70% improvement) but were still not where they needed to be health-wise.

    • All had their methylation chemistry measured prior to the start of the supplements(3), and all took the supplements for the next 6 months, while we measured their chemistry and they reported on their health status throughout. All patients took exactly the same supplements.

    • After six months, we individualized the patients’ treatment program based on their chemistry results, and continued to follow their progress and monitor their chemistry.

    The Results Are Exciting(4)

    Several important questions are addressed and answered:

    1. First of all, do we find that fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue patients do, indeed, have abnormal methylation chemistry? YES

    The initial methylation testing showed that:

    • Every single patient had abnormal results.

    • The average starting value of glutathione in our patients was 3.2 mmol/L (normal being 3.9-5.5 mmol/L)), and the average starting value for SAM (S-Adenosyl methionine, aka SAM-e, the major methylator) was 218 mmol/L (normal being 221-256 mmol/L).

    • 83% started with low glutathione levels.

    2. Can we demonstrate that taking these supplements raises those numbers into the normal range? YES

    • After 3 months, the average glutathione level was 3.8 mmol/L

    • After 6 months, the average glutathione level was 4.3 mmol/L

    • After 9 months, the average glutathione level was 4.7 mmol/L, which represents a 47% improvement, and ALL patients now had a normal level.

    • After 3 months, the average SAM level was 227 mmol/L

    • After 6 months, the average SAM level was 238 mmol/L

    • After 9 months, the average SAM level was 241 mmol/L, with only one patient not up into the normal range.

    3. Does this rise in glutathione and SAM correlate with clinical improvement? YES

    We had our patients rate 5 important areas of function on a 1-10 scale. This included energy, sleep, pain, cognitive function (memory, focus, concentration, and “brain fog”), and overall sense of well being.

    We can demonstrate progressive improvement in all of these areas in most patients, over the 9 months of the study:

    Sleep improved from an initial score of 4.7 to 6.0, with 73% of patients reporting improvement.

    Energy improved from an initial score of 3.9 to 6.6, with 86% of patients reporting improvement.

    Pain improved from an initial score of 5 to 6.6, with 80% of patients reporting improvement.

    Cognitive function improved from an initial score of 5.0 to 6.3, with 73% reporting improvement.

    Overall sense of well being improved from 4.3 to 6.8, with 79% reporting improvement.

    4. How much better were our patients? A LOT!

    It took an average of 5 to 6 weeks before the supplements started to work, and we can clearly show that the longer patients stayed on this program, the better they got.

    • Not everyone got better, but the vast majority (86%) improved.

    • The average improvement was rated by our patients as 48%.

    • And notably, 27% reported so much improvement that they now felt essentially well! Several who had not worked in over 5 years were able to resume full-time employment without difficulty.
    jimells and Dreambirdie like this.
  10. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Lotus, my year long (first real) bout with CFS happened 2 months after an amalgam cracked and fell out. There is no coincidence as far as I'm concerned. This without a doubt was the cause of my CFS. Every time I've increased or decreased my Mercury load I've experienced a heightening of symptoms. I got my final 2 amalgams removed last June and symptoms got very bad. Andy Cutler calls this a "Mercury Dump" where the organs, that no longer have to store mercury that is coming in, will release it to the bloodstream for removal. When chelation happens patients are advised to take a steady dose to keep the levels steady. Once the mercury starts coming out it seems to be like a faucet opening. You got to keep the chelator in the blood to pick it up or your symptoms are going to be awful. I'm wondering if the SMP is also detoxing Mercury as the chelators would.

    Rich says: "For people who suspect high body burdens of toxic metals, tests involving feces, urine and hair are available. High levels of some toxic metals can block enzymes in the methylation cycle and related pathways. Chelation treatment may be necessary to lower the levels enough to permit normal operation of this part of the metabolism."

    So is it the chicken and egg? DO I chelate first to remove the Mercury interference of the methylation cycle? If I take supps to overcome the block what is that doing to the Mercury in my body?

    I have also been taking B-Right for years. The Paba and Pantethine were very good for Adrenal Fatigue I found out. I see it now has 100mcg of MCbl. Wondering how much of that actually absorbs in the stomach? I see the folic acid is "Quatrefolic (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate". Hmmm.. So whatever MCbl + MTHF mkes it through the stomach would do it. Choline is also a methyl donor from what I've read (http://onibasu.com/archives/am/55325.html) so that may be involved also. I'm not sure if that is a new addition or not.
  11. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Good question, though I don't think there is any one right answer.

    I have a bunch of toxic metals still lingering in my system: thallium, cadmium, lead, arsenic, and uranium all show up both in hair mineral analysis and fecal metal tests. The problem is that I do not like to provoke too much of a detox, because sometimes the symptoms are too intense for me to handle--like 2-3 month long insomnia for example. I prefer to deal with the toxic metals as they come up, and neutralize/eliminate them at that point.

    Sometimes increasing my methylation supps will release toxic metals into my system. When that has happened, I've used Chinese herb prescriptions, along with fruit pectin and NAC to help assist elimination. That's what has worked best for me.

    If you can handle chelation, you might consider doing that first. But if you have already cleared a lot of the mercury, then it probably would be fine to proceed with the methylation supps. It's such an individual thing, and you really need to feel out what will work best for you.
  12. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I take the yucca with meals as it upsets my stomach. I will eventually buy capsules. We are pretty much on our own when it comes to chelation if our load is heavy. I rely on muscle testing and intuition and have done a lot of work detoxing with rifing. It may also be the reason why I seem to be able to tolerate Mb12 but its early days yet.

    Freddd

    I don`t need luck thanks - I listen to my body and it serves me well.
  13. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I would like to (Chelation) but am reluctant since I have 5 crowns and no way of knowing if any Mercury is hiding under them. The SMP has been making me feel better. I would like to see if I can stay in that "zone" for a while. Any period of time when I feel good if it can be extended I really need right now.
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  14. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I hear you. :thumbsup: It's always best to build energy whenever you can. If you run into a glitch, you can always readjust your protocol to suit it.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Well, that could explain a lot. Assuming what you said is true with me, my first thought is that I have really bad luck that I'd be exposed to mercury (and possibly copper since amalgams have copper too) and then start methylfolate right afterwards. But if that didn't happen I never would have found out about Phoenix Rising or methylation so I'm glad it happened. I had stopped alpha lipoic acid and NAC for the past few months since Rich and Cutler both say not to take them if you suspect mercury toxicity. I was taking 1200 mg of ALA and NAC for over a year without any problems even though I had amalgams, but maybe I'll stop again for a bit just to be on the safe side.

    If you remember the quote from Rich I posted earlier in this thread he specifically used the word "detox" for the people who could only tolerate a toothpick of methylfolate. I've heard from at least two people who had their metals tested after starting chelation and found that the methylation treatment caused them to dump metals. I've also heard from others who suspected metal toxicity and had a tough time with methylation.

    I had been considering taking clay (either calcium bentonite or zeolite), but I wasn't sure if it was necessary. I have a bottle of activated characoal, but I've only used it a few times because I'm concerned it will bind to all my supplements because I take supplements all day long. According to one manufacturer of modified citrus pectin, MCP only binds to the bad stuff, but I'm a bit skeptical.
    I've wondered the same thing and Rich has pretty much said it depends on the individual. If you do methylation, just go slow and take binders if you think you need them. I'm only taking 1000 mcg of hydroxocobalamin right now and I just recently stopped methylfolate and folinic acid (I was only taking 100 mcg of each). This is what Rich has said on the subject:
    ------
    I think it's best to try to get the methylation cycle block lifted and glutathione up first, to the degree that is possible, before doing chelation, if chelation is necessary. Having a good glutathione level will help to protect the body when the metals are mobilized, I think.

    If the heavy metals body burden is very high, these metals can block enzymes involved in the sulfur metabolism, including those associated with methylation and glutathione, to the degree that these parts of the metabolism will not recover very well under methylation treatment. If this is the case, then I think that chelation has to be done first, but it should be started slowly.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    -------
    I expect that you would get different advice from Andy, but for what it's worth, I would suggest doing the methylation protocol first. If it works, it will bring up the sulfur metabolism, which the body's detox system depends on to a large extent, and which is dysfunctional in ME/CFS. That will activate the body's normal ways of detoxing heavy metals and other toxins. Then, if it turns out to be necessary to do the chelation treatment, the body's detox system will be better able to help.

    If the body burdens of toxic metals, such as mercury, are too high, so that these toxins block enzymes in the methylation cycle or related pathways, then it will be necessary to do the chelation treatment first.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    -------
    The things that I believe helped my adrenal symptoms the most were consistently getting at least 10-11 hours of sleep and limiting activities and sources of stress. Limiting activities for me meant spending most of the day in bed. Since my social interactions were minimal, limiting sources of stress meant I stopped watching TV and movies, following politics, and reading fiction novels. I made a significant recovery during that period. I was also taking a lot of supplements and eating healthy which I'm sure also helped. Many of the supplements I was taking supported mitochondrial function, the Krebs Cycle, and ATP which help with energy and also glutathione production. Methylation will also improve mitochondrial function, ATP, and glutathione production. I was also taking adaptogens which probably helped my adrenals. And also various immune system supplements and antioxidants.

    I don't remember the amount of Pantethine being all that high in B right, but it does have pantothenic acid too. It's not a bad b complex, but I think there might be better options. The amount of methylcobalamin in it isn't significant because the absorption rate for B12 in the gut is much lower than taking B12 sublingually. If you're taking lecithin you're already getting plenty of choline. One tablespoon has around 225 mg of choline. I don't like that they don't tell you how much folic acid and how much of methylfolate is in it. It just says a total of 400 mcg. Too much folic acid can cause problems for some people. Too much methylfolate can also cause problems. I found a b complex that only has 100 mcg of folic acid and it also has P5P and R5P so I'm going to be taking that. I also have a sublingual b complex with coenzymated forms of B1, B2, B3, B6, and B12 (as adenosylcobalamin). It has folic acid too, but I'm only taking 1/4 of a tablet right now so I'm not getting too much folic acid. I also found a b complex and multi vitamin with only folinic acid (no folic acid or methylfolate) so I'll probably start taking those at some point. I just ordered an SNP test from 23andme so I'm hoping that will help me know which supplements to take for methylation.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sregan

    So is it the chicken and egg? DO I chelate first to remove the Mercury interference of the methylation cycle? If I take supps to overcome the block what is that doing to the Mercury in my body?

    For starters, selnium can lock up the mercury in a neutral substance for the rest of one's life. IF mercury is converted to monomethylmercury by MeCbl, it is a process extremely limited by known constaints on the MeCbl. If 10mcg are not excreted unchanged(peer reviewed journal studies) from 1000mcg injected. that leaves 10mcg of MeCbl that can be stripped of the methylgroup by mercury resulting in 1.4 MICROGRAMS of monomethylmercury, as is contained in 1 to 2 grams of the seafood that contains the most monomethylmecury. A 4 ounce serving of such a fish conatanis 112 grams of fish and perhaps 112mcg of monomethylmercury.

    As there is uncertainty if MeCbl interacts AT ALL with mercury in the body at in vivo concentrations, it is established that it does interact when at high concentration in vitro.

    In a non supplemented population it only takes the mercury destroying 2-4 mcg a day of MeCbl to casue severe deficiency symptoms in the long run. This would describe what appears to be happening. Approximately 80% of mercury symptoms are identical b12 deficiency symptoms

    In line with other animals that have been studied, monomethylmercury has a serum half life of approximately 71-72 days.Which means that each year humans get rid of 31/32 of the body load of monomethylmercury. So knowing that and a person's intake the equilibrium level can be easily calculated.

    In other words, mercury doesn't interfer at all with normal doses of MeCbl and L-methyfolate whereas the HyCbl has to compete with the mercury for the methyl group needed as one item for the conversion of HyCbl to MeCbl..
  17. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This is just a theory. Since this particular subset of forums is for both methylation and chelation, many people coming here have a metal toxicity of some sort. Since you are the only one other than Rich who has a methylation protocol here, people regard you as an authority on many different health related matters. It's important to note that what you are saying is largely theoretical.

    Rich believed that mercury was a real issue for a certain percentage of people here. Methylation can be especially difficult for people have a build up of toxins of any kind (or virus/infections for that matter). As I mentioned before people here have encountered toxins being released through methylation and have tests to prove it. People need to exercise a healthy dose of caution when following a methylation protocol of any kind.

    As far as methylcobalamin converting inorganic mercury into monomethylmercury, this is what Rich has said
    I prefer hydroxocobalamin for several reasons. One is that it allows the cells to control the amounts of the coenzyme forms of B12 (methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin) that they make, so that they can be matched to the need. Taking methylcobalamin in large dosages by injection or sublingually can overdrive the methylation cycle, as evidenced by a major rise in sarcosine, which I've seen in amino acids testing on some people who have been on this treatment for a while. I am not comfortable with overdriving the methylation cycle, both because I think it slows flow down the transsulfuration pathway and thus limits the normalization of the balance of the sulfur metabolism, including cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate, and also because I am concerned about the possibility of overmethylation of DNA, which could have other deleterious effects.

    My other concern is that methylcobalamin is known to be chemically able to methylate inorganic mercury. Many PWCs have significant body burdens of inorganic mercury as a result of having amalgam fillings in their teeth during an extended period while glutathione has been low, so that they have not been able to detox mercury at normal rates. Methylmercury can cross the blood-brain barrier readily. Mercury is a potent neurotoxin if it gets into the brain. This problem has been observed in guinea pigs. I don't have solid evidence for it in humans, but have heard from perhaps three people who may have had this problem, based on what they have reported. So I prefer to be cautious.
    --------------------
    Since Rich doesn't seem entirely sure about it, I probably will transition over to methylcobalamin at some point. I'm glad he's being cautious. It's usually better to err on the side of caution.

    However, it is true that the methylation process itself will release toxins so I'm going slow. What attracted me to Rich's protocol was what how he described it as: "a gentler approach to lifting the partial methylation cycle block, and many PWMEs need such an approach."
    jimells likes this.
  18. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Not sure what to tell you there, ALA is is bad WHEN there is mercury in your blood or can be pulled into the blood. ALA and Cilantro will both bring Mercury across the Blood Brain Barrier. In Freq Dose Chelation they want you chelating for 3 months to clear your blood of mercury before you start ALA. Lots of reports of people messing themselces up bad by taking Cliantro. For me having a little in food is enough to infect my dreams.

    I have taken Bentonite which wiped me out. I think it takes everything with it good and bad. Charcoal is fairly indescriminate also. If I take that I can help myself by taking B3 and Tyrosine. Charcoal is good for catching bile which carries the bad stuff the liver is trying to get rid of. The body wants to recycle as much bile as possible which also can cause reintroduction of toxic junk which should be in it's way out. Please be very careful with Zeolite. If you injest a binder always do it a coule hours away from eating.

  19. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I was wondering I know Selenium is recommended. I read that Selenium will increase the organ burden of mercury in some studies. I think Vitamin E helped that.Not sure whether is this Hg bound to selenium or not in the organs.
  20. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I had to slow down my protocol today. Yesterday wasn't so good and was heading downward. I've been taking potassium and extra mFolate. Yesterday I got get about an hour of nice mental peace after taking a small amount of mFolate.

    Not sure if the demand for M-folate just skyrockets? I took more later but it didn't help.

    Feels like either:

    1. there are other supplements my body needs that it's running out of (glutathione precursors? vitamins? Who knows?)

    2. liver may be getting overloaded.

    Not sure..

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