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SMP attempt, need advice

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by sregan, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I've had CFS for 10 years (lots of amalgams in my past, now out of my mouth). I started the SMP with just the B12 and 2 types of folate.

    1 Hydroxy per day (Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research, Hydroxy-B12, 1000mcg)
    1/4 Folapro and
    1/4 Folinic Acid (Source Naturals, MegaFolinic, 800 mcg)

    Initially felt better. Still had fatigue but my depression lifted quite a but. After the 3rd day started feeling worse. Headache and pains and soreness on my left side. A general soreness in the back on the left side had me thinking it was a kidney. Then it was more in the front with some heart area pangs. Felt like pancreas or spleen was swollen. I'm not sure. When the headache started I was feeling bad, depression was more intense, felt like something is really wrong.

    I'm guessing this is the herx I have heard about? I plan to start up again but will cutback on the supps. It seems to me that the folate is the accelerator? If I'm responding to the Folapro and the Folinic Acid could I just cut one of those out and effectively HALF the methylation support?

    I've been taking a "Jarrow" multi each day also. I didn't see anything spectacular in Yasko's with the exception of Intrinsic Factor which I don't believe I need with sublingual B12 right?

    I plan to get some Lecithin for my next attempt. Maybe that will ease things or help the detox?

    Any tips for lessening the detox other than slowing down methylation?

    Thanks
  2. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    You also need to be taking or eating a lot of potassium to offset some of the methylation start-up effects, like muscle pains, heart palpitations, etc.
  3. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    I did read up when it was happening and saw that Rich recommended Potassium. I tried some, maybe not enough....like 50mg the first day with a banana, then 100mg the next. It really didn't seem to help any. Things got back to "normal" the second day after I stopped taking the SMP supps.

    I'm not sure if I can cut the pills any smaller. Is it advisable to take them on a EOD or ETD then just increase the frequency as one can?
  4. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    You probably need more. At the moment I drink coconut water for potassium, but what has the most potassium, in terms of foods, are things like dried apricots and tomato or vegetable juices. Those are sort of hard on my digestion, while coconut water and bananas are the easiest.

    But many people on here do supplement with potassium and there are threads on those if you look around. It's worth getting the potassium right so you don't get too easily overwhelmed by start-up effects.
  5. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Awesome, thank you!
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sregan,

    The amount of potassium that might make a noticable difference in a single dose is usually more like 300-500mg with 16 oz of water. And tyhat might be needed up to a total of 1200-3000mg a day. The secodn day if One takes 500mg corrective dose, then start with 200mg 3 times or 4 times a day and see if more corrective potassium is needed. It moight take several days to titrate. It has a short serum halflife.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sregan,

    Any tips for lessening the detox


    Yes! Don't call it detox. That is not predictive of correcting it. If you do that interpretation it is often predictive of chasing your tail in circles for years. If it is recognized as likely a combination of low potassium and donut hole folate insufficiency and you titrate both of them, potassium first and then when that is under control, l-methylfolate.


    WHEN TREATED

    All of these are flags indicating healing is occurring. Minimizing nervous system response reduces or stops healing, especially of the nervous system. Minimizing ATP response prevents normalization of biochemistry.

    1 - Low potassium, almost everybody when healing starts. – often called “detox”

    2 - Low folate symptoms even with small doses of Metafolin – often called “detox”

    3 - Nervous system activation, everything is perceived as more intense – often called “detox”

    4 – ATP activation, everything is more energetic and intense – often called “detox”


    Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..

    IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

    Group 2a - Both

    IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

    Group 2b – Either or both

    Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

    Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

    IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.



    Group 4 - Hydroxycbl onset, degraded methylcbl onset, methylcbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

    Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

  8. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    From my experience with the SMP, I'd guess you might do better lowering your doses. Many of us used to crush the pills to powder and that worked well. They tend to crumble when cut anyway. Taking a break until my symptoms resolved and then restarting at a lower dose worked for me.

    And yes, more potassium seems to be necessary for most of us.

    Best wishes with this protocol,
    Sushi
  9. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Sregan--I definitely have had detox symptoms when taking the methylation supps. For anyone who has a heavy metal load in their body, that's likely to happen. Since you had a lot of amalgams in your mouth in the past, there's probably stores of toxic mercury still lurking in your tissues, bones, brain, nerves, and anywhere else where mercury has deposited itself. When you start the methylation supps, that mercury (and any other toxins) will be eventually get mobilized. Once it's released into circulation in your bloodstream, you'll be likely to have detox symptoms.

    The best way I've found to manage these is to stop the supps for a few days, drink lots of lemon water, and chlorophyl water, take NAC and fruit pectin, and take either hot baths or do a sauna. When I start up on the supps again, I split the dose I was taking in half, and see how that works. If it's too much, I will keep splitting it until I find a dose that is workable for me.

    Some people here have taken miniscule doses of the supps and worked up very slowly to larger doses. This can take a while, but in my experience having less stress on the body is preferable to riding the roller coaster of intense detox symptoms.

    Good luck with this, whatever you choose to do.
  10. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Sushi, thank you. I'm doing just what you recommended. I cut in half the dose I took yesterday. I'll try to find the highest dose with symptoms I can handle.

    Dreambirdie - Thank you for the advice. Everything you mention sounds good. I'll probably skip on the NAC though. On the chelation forms they don't recommend glutathione precursors.
    Dreambirdie likes this.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sregan,

    The most DANGEROUS "detox" effects are the low potassium symptoms that can cause problems up to and including death if called "detox" and ignored. If it is potassium usually it will respond rapidly to potassium and relieve the symptoms. Cutting the dose of Metafolin will make it worse if it is donut hole fpolate insufficiency. The best predictor of staying sick is to call these things "detox:" and do the opposite of what will help them. Also, it makes a good solid healing turn on impossible if it is always nipped in the bud. Real genuine detox the way people mean it might occasionally happen but it is a less than a 5% answer. NAC is npot a good idea at all. In a certain percentage of peole who take NAC get "NAC DETOX" wich is estab;lishing a methylblock and causeing severe folate deficiency. However that will take care of deficient potassium problems by crashing the healing that was just getting started and thereby not usuing the potassium. Each time a person hits methyltrap it appears that more damage is done.
  12. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Yesterday cut my dose to 1/8 Jarrow MBCL and 1/8 Dibencozide...Initially took 1/4 Folapro and later took another 1/4. Also took some potassium. Slept MUCH better last night than the previous 2 where I took 1/4 of the MBcl and ACBL.

    I got a package from Vitacost yesterday. I have some of the F-Carnitine now. I'll read up on how/when to introduce that.

    I was thinking about the methylation turning on and off. If my MCBL or Folate runs out does methylation stop? Then restart the next day when I take the supps again?
  13. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Hi sregan

    I tried the protocol last year and ran into problems like Dreambirdie and had to stop.

    Whatever anyone likes to call it, I was taking potassium but still things did not feel right in my body despite being a veteran at Herxheimer`s and despite encouragement to continue I listened to my body and now know I did the right thing.

    Recently however, after having my genome done with 23andme, and starting on yucca for ammonia, I decided to ignore the debate about sulphur and go straight for the protocol again. I took one half a Douglas Labs B-complex, containing methyl folate 200mcg and Mb12 250 mcg some Hxb12, b2 and vit c with potassium and have had a good effect. I felt a brightening but a little stress on the adrenals. I am missing it today and will go back to a quarter tomorrow.

    I think that my body was not ready for it last time, and I have been working on rifing, and believe my cell walls have strengthened due to eliminating PUFA`s and all vegetables oils using animal fats instead with coconut oil. I have also been earthing for inflamation.

    Listen to your body and maybe you need other work done before you are ready.
  14. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Brenda, I just got some Yucca with my last order. I forgot why I ordered it. You just reminded me I was going to address ammonia. I was working with sulfation just before I found my way back here to the SMP.

    I know what you speak. The intuitive thing is to run for safety. Freddd has been encouraging as far as pushing through. I will push as much as I can tolerate when symptoms flare. I"m taking extra m-folate as he recommended and potassium. Today I feel pretty damn good I must say. I have already improved in several areas due to what iittle of the SMP I've done so far.


    The B-Complex you're taking has PABA which seems to keep your body from degrading cortisol as fast. That might be helping you. Personally I was being helped by B-Right until I found the ingredients that helped my Adrenal Fatigue were the Pantethine and PABA specifically. I found those to be a huge help for my adrenals along with a buffered vitamin C. You should find the lowest dose of PABA and Pantethine especially that helps you. I was taking about 100mg of each in the morning (when cortisol should be the highest).

    I'm sure you know this stuff is very good for the bowel. If I could tolerate it I would take it every day.
    brenda likes this.
  15. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Brenda--I also have one of the CBS mutations, but it's a minor one, and according to greenshots/Angela--who is well versed on the genetic snips, it will not be a big problem to manage it. I've tested my urine for sulfates, and they are usually at 400, (so not very high), especially considering how many sulfur rich foods I eat.

    I'm glad to hear you found something that works for you. I think that's the key. Everybody is different, and there is no one-size-fits-all protocol.
    brenda likes this.
  16. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    sregan

    In my case, taking the slow road has been the way to go. I ran into huge problems when I took full doses of MB12, AdB12 and/or HB12 back in 2009. I have a lot of toxic metals lurking in my system, and I didn't have the energy to deal with the detox symptoms a few years ago, when I first attempted the methylation protocols.

    I know FOR SURE that I was having detox symptoms, because I did two fecal metal tests in the midst of two of my worst B12 detox related episodes, and they each indicated high levels of assorted toxic metals.

    I found it was essential for me to do whatever I could to strengthen my adrenals first. I also needed to get a better handle on the chronic viral infections, which were draining my energy down to zero. I've had some success doing this with acupuncture, adaptogenic herbs, anti-viral herbs, and a few dietary changes. One of the things that has helped me a lot is shiitake mushrooms--eaten on a daily basis for several months. I've had much fewer, and less long lasting, viral infections upon having eaten at least 7 shiitakes/day since November.

    Strengthening my adrenals made it possible for me to very gradually start sneaking in small doses of both MB12 and HB12, (starting with specks and building to about 250 mcg), alternating them, but not taking them regularly. Just recently I have been able to raise the dose to 500 mcg and take that on a more regular basis, and over the past week I have experimented with even higher doses (1000 mcg/day). I definitely need to get enough electrolytes--both potassium and magnesium in addition to the B12, or I will wake up in the middle of the night with heart palpitations.

    The key for me has been to find the sweet spot, where I feel relief from some of my worst neuro-related symptoms, without throwing myself into an overwhelming detox episode. This has required me to readjust my protocol as needed, and to be flexible with how I proceed forward. Pushing myself has always led to more problems. I would personally not recommend it, especially if you are in fragile health.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sregan,

    One of the effects of the MECbl is that the nervous system wakes up and one can really feel everything, good and bad. However, it also gives one the clues. Follwoing the clues to healing from the sensitivity tells a lot. When this is on, you can tell what is having effectiveness. A problem with the l-methylfolate is a short half life. One can have 5x more than needed at 9 am, and have so little at 9pm that the epithelial cell reproduction falters. If

    If my MCBL or Folate runs out does methylation stop

    That depends upon how close to the border one is. For instance, from a single dose of MeCbl of some mcgs are retained. A normal response pattern for non-daily dosing is Day 1 dose and "brightening and some symptoms relieve a little" , day 2 - brighten fades, day 3 symtpoms start returning. With methylfolate that can happen beteen morning and evening.. The thing with folate is that one one or more layers can be healing at the same time as another layer is blocked. The methlation block really appears to happen in layers, so results can look contradictory. It is a partial methylation block in layers. ATP is like that too. It can come aqnd go with carnitine for some peopel and it is in layers. Also, if on the edge of methyltrap, one can wobble back and forth in and out of methyltrap with a strange mix of often contradictory symptoms. Getting through it is often counter inturitive.

    In my opinion the thing to do is get the AdoCbl, MECbl and folate going in a stable dose. Take care of titrating potassium and get that stable. As a person typically has partial conversion to AdoCbl, the mitochondria are also getting some, not enough, but a start. After the methylation gets going the LCF may only be needed after things settle down and healing is slowing down. Then the LCF can be titrated. If things are going well and are intense and healing fast, just keep it going and balanced. Then when coming off the healing edge, consider LCF. It might me months later if you have a strong response that perhaps it becomes obvious that the muscles are not healing or fatigue isn't normalizing.

    My experience is that when the nerves are healing one feels that. The sensations of healing can be very intense. For my muscles it was one pain after another, all 10 or 12 varieties, one at a time mostly, changing and chhanging and then fading. The sensations were intense but not "sick" like low potassium one can feel terrible and sick and with folate insufficiency, skin often shoes fast forming sores, lesions, rashes etc. Neurological intensity occurs while the the nervous system is healing. Moods are volitile but improving during healing whereas if worsening, as from potassium, mood changes happen quickly. With healing they happen over months. Neuropathies that heal are extremely painful and unpleasant. When they get worse they go from pain and it fades towards numbness. Getting better they start up from numbness to shooting pain, intense pain, slowly fading through varieties of pain until it becomes hypersensitive. Then a slow fade worwards normal if healing continues. If nerves are not taken all the way they start falling back immediately. There is no plateau. They are either getting worse or better and often shift around in a circle becasue they don't hold still.
  18. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    sregan

    It doesn`t say PABA on the label - do you think I should be taking it as well?
  19. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    Sorry Brenda, I found a product online Douglas Labs "Tri-D" that has PABA. Sorry for my incorrect assumption. I would continue taking yours if it is helping you.
    brenda likes this.
  20. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Thanks Dreambirdie

    Like you, last time it took me ages to recover from `it`. If it was a healing crisis then I doubt it would have given me such a setback. I know now that my body was not ready for the methyl donors. Things are different this time as I did not get the `brightening` in the past. I really feel that cutting out PUFA`s has made a huge difference for me. I can only cope with saturated/monosaturated fats and keep my cell walls intact. I only heat coconut oil and ghee now.
    Dreambirdie likes this.

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