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Small B12 brand experiment

Messages
67
Hi everyone. I'm also having to stop the b12 lozenges due to teeth issues and I am ordering from b12oils,com. At first I was only going to order the meb12 but then decided to get the adb12 oil as well. Does anyone else use both of these separately? They have a combo me12/adb12 product that they want to sell me on but I think I'd like to control the ratio myself.

Another note: I've never had any reaction to adb12 -- source naturals or country life. I can take 10+ mg with no effect. But 10mg meb12 makes my life a little better -- though the effect has worn off over time. For the record, I am very sensitive to folate and LCF -- only up to 800mg folate and 100mg LCF after several months.

Any thoughts would be great. Thanks!
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
I started with the pure-mB12 oil, or so I thought. I'd gotten good results with just mB12 sprays/sublinguals and never noticed any improvement when I added some dibencozide (adB12), so I didn't think I needed the adB12. But after getting great results with what I *thought* was the pure-mB12 oil, I re-ordered more mB12 and it was a different color. Whaa?? And within a few days I was feeling terrible. Eventually I figured out I'd had a mix-up with the oils, and the oil that was working so well for me was actually the mixed mB12 / adB12. I switched to that and I've been feeling great with it for months now. FWIW.
 

MAF14

Senior Member
Messages
195
I've looked through this thread a few times but must keep missing it. I could have swore I saw some one mention the Liquid B12/Lotion combo they feel works best but I cant find it... Any recommendations?
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
1. The B12 oil effect is much better than an Enzymatic logenzes. I would say that a single 0.25ml dose of B12 oils would be roughly equivalent to sucking on SEVERAL (6?) Enzymatic lozenges all throughout the day. The oil is sustained release and it lasts about 6 or 7 hours, plus afterglow.

@Sherpa -- weird question, but what prevents the b12oil from being 'damaged' by UV light? I thought that b vits were especially susceptible to light, and that's why they're typically packaged in opaque plastic or brown glass bottles...
 

cph13

Senior Member
Messages
221
Location
USA
@dannybex Hi! I wish I had such an effect. Maybe the oils that were shared with me were old or not handled properly????
 
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helen1

Senior Member
Messages
1,033
Location
Canada
@dannybex The b12 oils come in a metal dispenser, so is completely opaque. I wonder whether it loses some of it's activity though once it's on your skin, as it would then be exposed to light. For myself so far, I've only used it on skin that is then covered, so for me there's been little light exposure to oil on skin.
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
@dannybex, the oil is deep red when it comes out of the bottle, but the red largely disappears within a few seconds when you rub it in. I suspect the oil soaks into your skin, taking the red B12 with it, and then the B12 is protected from light by your skin. And then I put on a shirt and cover it up. :)

@helen1, minor nit, but I don't think it's metal. I think it's plastic with a shiny coating.

@MAF14, I think the oil that works best for you is going to depend on your particular SNPs. For me and apparently for many CF sufferers, the adenosyl/methyl works best.
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
dannybex,
Look at a picture of the B12 oil pump at B12oils.com. The B12 oil content is in a glass vial that sits inside at the bottom of the pump. You can't see it unless you unscrew the top. The exterior of the pumps are metallic looking, probably a metallic foil or chromed plastic, and totally shielded from light. Far better light protection than brown glass bottles.

B12 is water-based. Greg, the PhD biochemist developer, devised a way, I think perhaps by nano-sizing the B12, have having the B12 stay soluble in an oil carrier. Since skin is a lipid environment, the only way anything will pass through the skin is if it is oil based. So the oil carrier passes through the skin, taking the B12 along with it. Since blood is water-based, the water-based B12 can then enter the blood stream.

Once the red B12 is rubbed well into the skin and the red disappears, which takes maybe 10 seconds, it is then protected from light.

This is my best recollection of how Greg explained it to me.
 
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garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
I just tried breaking open one of the oil bottles. The container is entirely plastic with a silvery coating. There is a plastic plunger that gets drawn up as you suck out the oil, so it keeps the oil at a level where the squirt pump can reach it. That's why you can sometimes get some more squirts out after it starts to spatter -- unscrew the top, then use a paper clip (in the hole on the bottom of the bottle) to push the plunger up. Or just pour it into your next bottle, which is usually easier. Just don't push the plunger too high, OR pour too much into another bottle, or it will spill all over when you screw in the pump top. (Guess how I know. :lol:)

@dannybex, you'd have to ask Greg at b12oils.com if the plastic container is a risk. I'm sure he thinks it's a safe container, but he might not be aware of the metals issue.

For contents of the oil, see http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/ -- the adeno/methyl oil has roughly 7.5 mg adenosyl per ml of oil, and 2.5 mg/ml methyl. Since each dose is roughly 0.25 ml, that makes it about 1.875 mg adenosyl and 0.625 mg methyl per squirt. They've documented about 80% absorption in animal testing, so that means each 0.25ml dose is equivalent to an injected dose of about 1.5 mg adB12 and 0.5 mg mB12.

Be careful comparing sublingual mg to injected or transdermal mg. They aren't equivalent. Sublingual usually has very low usable absorption. Freddd and others say anywhere from 1% to maybe 10%. Also the sublinguals tend to spike your serum levels for a very short time, so unless you keep sublinguals in your mouth all day, you still end up with low levels much of the day. Whereas the oil diffuses into your system over about an 8 hour period, keeping the levels consistently high. For me personally, before I found the oil, I was using over 30mg/day of Country Life 5mg sublinguals, and that wasn't keeping my symptoms in check. Then with the oil, 3 doses/day (4.5mg adenosyl and 1.5mg methyl) worked vastly better than the 30+mg/day of sublinguals. (I wasn't taking adB12 consistently at that point, and that probably also contributed to the bad results with just CL.)

A week ago my last bottle ran out much earlier than I expected. (Turns out it wasn't actually empty, but the plunger at the bottom didn't move up appropriately. I was able to force it up with a paperclip stuck into the bottom of the bottle.) It started to spatter the day after I placed an order, and it takes 7-10 days to deliver from Australia. So I was looking at at least a week without my 3/day doses. In some desperation, I went back to the Country Life. But this time I followed Freddd's suggestion that "time in contact with oral tissues" was more important than "mg in the tablets." (You want a steady supply over a long period, rather than a short spike.) I broke the tabs into quarters, meaning I had the stuff in contact with my mucosa 4x longer. I also put it under my lip, which makes it dissolve much more slowly. That actually worked pretty well. I took some adB12 (dibencozide) & mB12 in the morning, then some mB12 during the day if I remembered it, then a bit more in the evening and a single shot of ad/me oil at bedtime. Maybe a total of 1-2 5mg mB12 tabs and about 4mg adB12 tabs, plus 1 shot/day of oil. Didn't work as well as 3x/day oil, but it worked much better than taking 6 * 5mg Country Life per day, one whole tab at a time under my tongue.

BTW if you're wincing at the price of the oil (try it when you need 3 doses a day!!), that approach of breaking the tabs into quarters works pretty well, and it's a lot cheaper. Even if I took 2 * 5mg per day, at $14 for a 60-count bottle that's only $0.14 a day, vs about $0.75/dose for the oil. If you're like me, you should also add in a healthy shot of adB12 with sublingual dibencozide. The oil uses about 3x more adB12 than mB12. If you do this, choose your sublinguals with care to avoid acids, sugars, and folic acid.
 
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dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Thanks @garyfritz and @Lynn_M.

I'm only wincing at the price because I'm on disability and have ze-ro income. But I'm wanting to move to another brand of b12 because I may be having oxalate issues, and xylitol, which is in most of the sublinguals, increases endogenous oxalate production.

I'm familiar with Fred's hypothesis on the absorption of b12, but it doesn't seem to explain why one's b12 levels can be sky-high (albeit perhaps functionally low) even without holding the sublinguals in one's mouth for longer than 10 minutes, let alone 2.

Which brings me back to the oils (sorry for so many questions!): But if the oils absorb into the skin within seconds, then how does that reconcile with the need to hold sublinguals in one's mouth for extended periods?
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
Sublingual and transdermal are totally different mechanisms. As I understand it, sublingual diffuses through your oral mucosa pretty pretty directly into your bloodstream. No buffering, no delay, straight into serum. That spikes the serum levels fairly quickly, and supposedly it drops again fairly quickly. If you've seen the "ferry boat" analogy I've posted elsewhere, it can be like 500 cars showing up at the dock, but only for a few minutes, and the ferry can only carry 10 cars at once. By the time it comes back for another load, the cars are gone.

By contrast the oil soaks into your skin quickly (so the B12 is protected from light) but it doesn't go directly into your bloodstream. It diffuses through your skin and subdermal layers and takes a while to work its way into your bloodstream. I think it's closer to what happens with subcutaneous injection. It takes time to get into serum, and it dribbles slowly into your bloodstream over hours, so you have a steady sustained boost to your B12 levels. So instead of 500 cars for a few minutes, you get 15 or 20 cars waiting for hours. There are always at least 10 cars ready to go when the ferry shows up.

That's my understanding, anyway...
 
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Journeyman

Senior Member
Messages
193
Nice post Gary,

I've now been using the B12 Adenosyl/Methyl b12 oil for about 3 weeks after I found that 2 years of sublingual B12's had all but caused my current $18k dental bill i'm now facing... I found that the first few times I used my bottle it squirted out a substantial amount of oil, but for the last week or so its almost like its not working properly and it barely squirts out enough oil to cover a fingerprint size area of skin and with hardly any depth..... So i'll look at unscrewing the bottle and then looking for some kind of hole at the bottom that I can push the plugner thing up... I'm really concerned that I'm getting a _FAR_ reduced dose of B12 the last week or so and in the context of having vaccinations/stress of getting ready for an upcoming trip I need good levels! How often are you finding the bottles problematic? Has anyone enquired as to whether they're going to improve the bottle mechanism so we can rely on the dosage...

I just tried breaking open one of the oil bottles. The container is entirely plastic with a silvery coating. There is a plastic plunger that gets drawn up as you suck out the oil, so it keeps the oil at a level where the squirt pump can reach it. That's why you can sometimes get some more squirts out after it starts to spatter -- unscrew the top, then use a paper clip (in the hole on the bottom of the bottle) to push the plunger up. Or just pour it into your next bottle, which is usually easier. Just don't push the plunger too high, OR pour too much into another bottle, or it will spill all over when you screw in the pump top. (Guess how I know. :lol:)

@dannybex, you'd have to ask Greg at b12oils.com if the plastic container is a risk. I'm sure he thinks it's a safe container, but he might not be aware of the metals issue.

For contents of the oil, see http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/ -- the adeno/methyl oil has roughly 7.5 mg adenosyl per ml of oil, and 2.5 mg/ml methyl. Since each dose is roughly 0.25 ml, that makes it about 1.875 mg adenosyl and 0.625 mg methyl per squirt. They've documented about 80% absorption in animal testing, so that means each 0.25ml dose is equivalent to an injected dose of about 1.5 mg adB12 and 0.5 mg mB12.

Be careful comparing sublingual mg to injected or transdermal mg. They aren't equivalent. Sublingual usually has very low usable absorption. Freddd and others say anywhere from 1% to maybe 10%. Also the sublinguals tend to spike your serum levels for a very short time, so unless you keep sublinguals in your mouth all day, you still end up with low levels much of the day. Whereas the oil diffuses into your system over about an 8 hour period, keeping the levels consistently high. For me personally, before I found the oil, I was using over 30mg/day of Country Life 5mg sublinguals, and that wasn't keeping my symptoms in check. Then with the oil, 3 doses/day (4.5mg adenosyl and 1.5mg methyl) worked vastly better than the 30+mg/day of sublinguals. (I wasn't taking adB12 consistently at that point, and that probably also contributed to the bad results with just CL.)

A week ago my last bottle ran out much earlier than I expected. (Turns out it wasn't actually empty, but the plunger at the bottom didn't move up appropriately. I was able to force it up with a paperclip stuck into the bottom of the bottle.) It started to spatter the day after I placed an order, and it takes 7-10 days to deliver from Australia. So I was looking at at least a week without my 3/day doses. In some desperation, I went back to the Country Life. But this time I followed Freddd's suggestion that "time in contact with oral tissues" was more important than "mg in the tablets." (You want a steady supply over a long period, rather than a short spike.) I broke the tabs into quarters, meaning I had the stuff in contact with my mucosa 4x longer. I also put it under my lip, which makes it dissolve much more slowly. That actually worked pretty well. I took some adB12 (dibencozide) & mB12 in the morning, then some mB12 during the day if I remembered it, then a bit more in the evening and a single shot of ad/me oil at bedtime. Maybe a total of 1-2 5mg mB12 tabs and about 4mg adB12 tabs, plus 1 shot/day of oil. Didn't work as well as 3x/day oil, but it worked much better than taking 6 * 5mg Country Life per day, one whole tab at a time under my tongue.

BTW if you're wincing at the price of the oil (try it when you need 3 doses a day!!), that approach of breaking the tabs into quarters works pretty well, and it's a lot cheaper. Even if I took 2 * 5mg per day, at $14 for a 60-count bottle that's only $0.14 a day, vs about $0.75/dose for the oil. If you're like me, you should also add in a healthy shot of adB12 with sublingual dibencozide. The oil uses about 3x more adB12 than mB12. If you do this, choose your sublinguals with care to avoid acids, sugars, and folic acid.
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
I've now been using the B12 Adenosyl/Methyl b12 oil for about 3 weeks after I found that 2 years of sublingual B12's had all but caused my current $18k dental bill i'm now facing...
Ouch!! I'm glad I didn't do the sublinguals very long, and I was pretty careful about finding sublinguals without acids or sugars. And that was lucky. I thought it was a good idea, but I really had no idea it could do SO much damage.

I found that the first few times I used my bottle it squirted out a substantial amount of oil, but for the last week or so its almost like its not working properly and it barely squirts out enough oil to cover a fingerprint size area of skin and with hardly any depth..... So i'll look at unscrewing the bottle and then looking for some kind of hole at the bottom that I can push the plugner thing up...
Yes, that works. You have to be a little careful to not push it up too far, or it will spill all over when you screw the cap back on. Eventually I find it works best to just switch to a new bottle, and when I've drawn that one down a bit, pour the old bottle into it. Hopefully the plunger hasn't pulled up enough so there's no room to add the old oil.

I'm really concerned that I'm getting a _FAR_ reduced dose of B12 the last week or so and in the context of having vaccinations/stress of getting ready for an upcoming trip I need good levels!
Yes, that can definitely be a problem. When I first started using the oils, I didn't understand the "spatter" mechanism and I didn't really realize I was getting a smaller dose. Within a few days I was feeling bad because my doses were short.

How often are you finding the bottles problematic? Has anyone enquired as to whether they're going to improve the bottle mechanism so we can rely on the dosage...
I'd say at least every other bottle spatters before it really ought to. You can get a lot more out of them by pushing up the bottom or pouring into a new bottle. I haven't asked Greg if he was looking into any other containers.

The best way to rely on the dosage is to make sure it's working right. If you get a nice normal squirt, you're probably good. If it starts to spatter or do other non-normal behaviors, push up the bottom or pour into another bottle so you get back to a normal squirt.
 
Messages
67
Just wanted to add my two cents here. I just finished my first bottles of the oils. Maybe it's dosing/absorption but unlike most here, I didn't get nearly enough b12 in my system. I did two squirts each day of mb12 and adb12. Today, I put 2.5mg jarrow meb12 under my tongue and immediately felt a soothing of my nervous system. I don't get this effect with the popular Enzymatic lozenges either. Weird. Financially, I can't continue increasing the oil dose so I guess I'm better off with the jarrow and buying some enamel protecting toothpaste. :) my teeth were much less sensitive during my month on the oils. :(

I hope other transdermal options are developed in the future. But these Australian oils didn't have an effect on me.
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
JCamp,
Were you rubbing the oil in well each time you applied it? It's surprising how many people just apply it and barely rub it in. Also, make sure your skin and hands are clean and dry when applying the oil.

If you still have any bottles, you might try applying the oil to the soles of your feet.
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
Regarding the pumps for the B12 oil. They initially were a smaller pump, and I experienced some splatter, especially when the pump was getting low. I haven't had a splatter problem with the larger pumps now being used, except when they were almost empty.

Greg says that being in Australia limits the availability of pump suppliers he can deal with. The pumps need to be shipped in from another country, and because of the shipping distance, most suppliers have a much larger minimum order requirement than what he requires. I'm sure he would like to know if people are having a problem with the pumps, though.

If you order 6 pumps at a time, you get a quantity discount and the shipping cost isn't that much more for 6 than it is for 1 pump. Greg says the B12 oil stays good for a long time. Custom regulations make it prohibitive to ship more than 6 at a time.

I too had a dental bill for thousands of dollars after using sublingual B12.
 
Messages
67
JCamp,
Were you rubbing the oil in well each time you applied it? It's surprising how many people just apply it and barely rub it in. Also, make sure your skin and hands are clean and dry when applying the oil.

If you still have any bottles, you might try applying the oil to the soles of your feet.

Yes, I rubbed it in well. It's so strange that I am not responding to it. I'd love to try it on my feet but financially I can't afford the oils right now.
 

garyfritz

Senior Member
Messages
599
That IS very odd, considering how well it works for most other people, and considering that you do respond well to the Jarrow mB12.

I definitely understand the financial concern -- the oil is not cheap. But it's not worth wrecking your teeth. Have you tried other delivery mechanisms? Maybe try crushing the Jarrow tabs and mixing with skin cream, and make your own transdermal? Or maybe try some of the other transdermal solutions on the market?

Have you tried the Country Life 5mg sublinguals? That specific product contains no sugars, no acids, and no folic acid. The sweetener used (xylitol) is actual *beneficial* to tooth enamel.