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slow or fast replicating virus/ ebv, cmv, hhv6

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by heapsreal, Apr 9, 2011.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I cant seem to find if these herpes viruses replicate quickly or slowly. Can someone answer this for me.

    WHy I ask is that av's have a short half life like 2-3hrs, so is it more beneficial to split your dosages in 2-3 doses a day or 1 big dose a day which would greatly increase blood levels and tissue penetration. If these viruses are slowly replicating then one big dose a day would probably be better.

    I have recently changed my dosage of famvir from 250mg twice a day to 500mg once a day with probenecid which probenecid also increases blood levels and half life of av's and abx. Im not sure how much it increases the half life of av's but if u can get a few more hours out of the drug then thats great.

    cheers!!!
     
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Also do others think there is a difference between replication and reactivation. ie replication as in reproducing and infecting other cells versus reactivating causing inflammation and an immune response which i think can still happen when on antivirals, but the antivirals stop the virus from infecting other cells and slowly reducing the viral load and hopefully the virus dies out. WHich i think is the theory behind dr lerners av protocol.

    I have just found some info which says cmv is slow replicating where fast replicating herpes viruses are hsv 1/2 , chickenpox/shingles. im guessing ebv and hhv6 are slow replicators as well.

    Does this sound correct. I appreciate others comments.
    cheers!!!
     
  3. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Hi heaps!

    As I understood it -- and I could be wrong -- when the virus is reactivated, you get inflammation and immune response. That continues (or can continue?) throughout av treatment because the infected cells are still acting on the body. The av's stop the replication so, 1) you body has a hope of catching up with killing off the infected cells (if it's able) and 2) the viral load decreases naturally as the infected cells slowly die off. Eventually (we hope), your immune system finally kicks the herpesvirus back into latency and you're good until it reactivates again. I think Dr Lerner likes to keep the virus from replicating with avs as long as possible to get the viral load really low to reduce the likelihood of reactivation. Not sure though.

    After 5 months of very little progress on Valcyte, I felt like my immune system suddenly kicked back in... and it wasn't pretty -- something like an IRIS reaction I thought. After 10-12 wks of that, I felt tremendously better. My best guess is that my immune system was worn out (or something like that) from fighting an impossible battle with the HHV-6, but once the replication was stopped and some of the infected cells started dying of old age, my immune system was better able to handle what was left. Just a guess, though.

    My daughter, however, has a significant -- but not huge -- improvement within the first 2 months and then a slow but steady improvement over the next 12 months. I don't know why we had different paths, but my guess is that my immune system was not functioning as well as hers at the start.

    Just a wild guess -- but I'm thinking that if cmv is slow replicating, hhv6 probably is too, since the meds and protocols seem to be the same. Not sure about ebv.

    FWIW, Dr Lerner prescribes twice a day, in the beginning at least. My daughter is doing well enough that he decreased her dose and she only takes it once a day -- not a smaller amount twice a day.
     
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Mybe IRIS is whats happening to me at the moment as my lymphocytes have come down to more normal but im feeling crappy, maybe my immune system has kicked in and is starting to fight, neutrophils have dropped which is a sign my immune system is tiring, so i have added some herbs for that. I wonder if your daughters viral load wasnt as high as yours or her immune system was still working unlike yours.

    Thanks for that reply, good to know someone else is going through the same sort of thing.

    cheers!!!
     
  5. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    My daughter's hhv6 titres were (and still are) higher than mine, although I've always been sicker than her. Age? Better immune system? Who knows?

    Sorry to hear you're feeling crappy. :( For me it was unpleasant, but not unbearable. I had a shingles and hsv1 reactivation as well as all the usual CFS flare symptoms. Since I have a fairly high pain threshold and am emotionally tough, I found the whole period more annoying and unpleasant than discouraging. In the end, it was well worth feeling extra crappy for a few months. I hope you (and your body) can hang in there and get past that rough stage.

    Good luck!
     
  6. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I suppose its bearable to a degree(dont have a choice i guess) but frustrating as its a few steps backwards from where i was. But IRIS makes sense as my viral load has gone down and cycloferon that im using has kickstarted my immune system. My brain fog hasnt been this bad in years and i have had a few sweat attacks(sign immune system is kicking in) and just alot more lethargic. Hopefully i can ride this out and feel alot better like what happened to yourself. ITs a matter of how long it takes i suppose. Its one of those things when u feel crappy u start looking at other treatment options etc, forget about things like IRIS etc.

    cheers!!!
     
  7. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    Hang in there if you can. What you're going through sounds a lot like what I went through. I had forgotten the bad brain fog, but yeah, that was significant. So was the lethargy.

    I had the benefit of knowing that my uncle, after 8 yrs on avs (!), considers himself cured of ME/CFS. He is certainly very active -- playing softball and dancing (often in the same day) -- for a guy in his 70's.

    My thinking during the bad patch was that active HHV-6 cannot be good for my body, so knocking it back could only be good, even if I felt crappy for a few months. That said, I'm still a long way from well after 14 mo, but I'm a lot better. My daughter, on the other hand, is back in remission, or nearly so. :) If you ever start doubting your av treatment, keep my family in mind. ;)

    Best wishes!
     
  8. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    information i have just found on CMV is that it is a slow replicating virus, one replication cycle taking 144hours.

    Primary cytomegalovirus infection is controlled by a combination of coordinated innate and
    adaptive immune responses. The immune response starts with the innate response
    comprising interferons (IFN) and activation of NK cells. The efficient protective adaptive
    response appears to be T-cell mediated (Reddehase et al., 1987; Polic et al., 1998), with
    antibody playing a role in recurrent infection (Jonjic et al., 1994d).

    know wonder i have problems with cmv as my nk function is a shocker and my t-cells are elevated, mmm, must be psychological, lol
     
  9. Grape Funk

    Grape Funk Senior Member

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    Now that i am taking 3g Valtrex generic a day, i wonder about the loads as well. I am currently taking 1g at morning , afternoon, and then right before i go to bed. I might switch it up to 2 in the morning and 1 mid afternoon. The viruses that are a problem so far are opposites in replicating speeds, HS1 is fast and EBV you stated might be slow, so im torn half and half which would benefit most.

    Heaps since you have CMV, that might be why your lymphs are elevated and mine are not(im all in range, though may not be functioning properly), but we are all different in our individual immune functionality, i dont know if there is a definitive answer really.
     
  10. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    So if your innate immune response is totally f'd up, but your adaptive response is still functioning (somewhat, anyway), could it be that replicating herpesvirus infections simply grow too fast for adaptive response to do the whole job? In which case, stopping replication can give your adaptive response a fighting chance...? Can the adaptive immune part actually do the job without the help of the innate part? I know so little about biomedical science. **sigh**

    Are antibodies part of the adaptive response? Could targeted transfer factors help it along, or would they be pointless if that part is already working?

    So many questions....
     
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    u could be onto something with antibodies, i have tested positive to ebv IgG in the past and now cant make antibodies to ebv even though they are suppose to be for life and have similar things happen to other viruses too. I do make cmv antibodies and my T-cells respond but they are the only thing that are, maybe their function is crap too. my nk numbers are low normal and their function is crap. The AV's are doing something as they are helping bring the t-cells down to a more normal level. Will have to look into targeted transfer factors.

    grape funk, it might be worth experimenting with dosages maybe, i can seem to find the speed of ebv replication yet?

    cheers!!!
     
  12. undcvr

    undcvr Senior Member

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    Hey SickofCFS, can you tell me how long both you and your daughter have been on the Valcyte again and what are your doses now ?
    You can pvt msg me.
    I am approaching my 6th months come May 3rd. I just want to know what to expect.
     
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    sickofcfs , i have had 3 good days since having a good whinge about feeling so crappy with brain fog and lethargy etc. Things i have changed in the last week that might have helped are famvir from 250mg twice a day to 500mg once a day with probenecid(helps increase blood levels and 1/2 life of av's), inosine 2000mg at night and can work like an immune modulator also been back on injectable cycloferon for a couple of weeks now too, astragalus -herbal immune stimulant. SO i think the things i have added to boost my immune system could have contributed to an IRIS type effect on me in combination with the antivirals finally getting my viral load down low enough for my immune system to start firing up. Fingers crossed i start staying this way.

    cheers!!!
     
  14. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

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    We've been on Valcyte for 15 months. You can read more of our experiences here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?6706-Valcyte-(plus)-Update

    My daughter and I had different paths, so I don't know if we can give you any useful hints about what to expect. My daughter has had slow, steady progress with no side effects. My path has been a bit bumpier, but nothing really bad. I had an IRIS-like reaction at about 4 months, I think. Nothing I couldn't handle -- like a really bad flare + shingles. Nasty, but not intolerable. Some liver enzyme questions a couple of times, but they cleared up right away without needing to change my Valcyte dosage.

    We both took 900mg in the morning and 450mg in the evening (with food). My daughter's dosage was reduced to only 900mg in the morning after about 10 months. She was continuing to improve, but her liver enzymes were heading in the wrong direction. Not bad, yet, but she didn't seem to need the higher dose. She has continued to improve at the same rate on the lower dose.

    I have an appt with Dr Lerner later this week. I'll post another update after that.

    Do you have any other questions? I'll help if I can. :)
     
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    I suppose alot depends on how long we have been sick for and how deep the virus has penetrated, not just titres levels as i suppose they could be high but need time to penetrate deeper into the nervous system and brain and also to turn the immune system down. I have read that herpes viruses avoid the immune system by turning down our ability to make interferon which is antiviral and also strengthens nk function, so when viral load drops , this blockage of interferon stops and our immune system starts working causing the IRIS reaction. Does that make sense???

    cheers!!!
     
  16. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thanks to you all - I'm learning a lot here ! (any chance of educating our Docs here).
     

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