The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Sleep quality and the treatment of intestinal microbiota imbalance in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome...

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Kyla, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. Kyla

    Kyla ᴀɴɴɪᴇ ɢꜱᴀᴍᴩᴇʟ

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    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1984006315000632
    (Open access)


     
    GaryK, MeSci, Little Bluestem and 2 others like this.
  2. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    This makes sense to me - I find that what I eat strongly influences how I sleep. Since I have been on the FODMAP diet, I wake up no more than once a night, whereas before it was every couple of hours.
     
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  3. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    The Lactobacillus finding is interesting, is this because it also produces lactic acid?
     
  4. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I would guess so but am not sure.

    I expect he has heard it a thousand or more times, but I just love the appropriateness of the lead author's name to his study area...

    Seriously, fixing the gut has benefited many of us, but I personally don't like to go down the antibiotic line other than the natural antibiotic grapefruit seed extract.

    Mostly I have just relied on the right diet plus certain supplements. It has made a huge difference to my sleep and also anxiety levels.

    Another approach is faecal transplant, which has helped some, I understand, but I really don't like the thought of it!
     
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  5. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Haha, I didn´t register the irony until you pointed it out.

    I´m just about to take a course of antibiotics for this very purpose, but I can see why others would shy away from messing around with their already messed-up guts.

    I don´t fancy the idea of a faecal transplant either, although one of the decolonization techniques I discovered recently must come close in terms of disgustingness - this is gut lavage, which is also used before colonoscopies.

    NB. I just read that it has been used to treat severe sepsis!
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    What is used to treat severe sepsis?

    I prefer to avoid antibiotics, and gut lavage, because I have improved my gut function so much, and don't want to risk going back to the state it was in before, as I expect from experience that all my ME symptoms will also return with a vengeance, as they follow changes in gut function so closely.

    I find that grapefruit seed extract seems to treat unwanted microbes without adversely affecting gut function - in fact it usually improves it for me.
     
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  7. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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    Haha yes, I have to admit I laugh everytime I see it. Another funny one was the name of the surgeon who removed my daughter's appendix - Dr Butchers
     
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  8. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Gut lavage has been used to treat severe sepsis once or twice, with good results.

    Do you still have that lactic feeling, MeSci? I´m hoping that the antibiotics will help with this.
     
  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    I don't really know what you mean by a lactic feeling. When my gut is messed up the main gut symptoms are bowel looseness and urgency, and sometimes nausea and excessive hunger. Non-gut symptoms worsen soon after.

    I do have various mostly-mild abdominal pains which fluctuate. At present these are most commonly gastroesophageal-type pains and groin pain, but I really don't know the cause. I have had gut problems on and off since childhood. Never really got to the bottom of it :lol: but my self-treatments have helped more than anything doctors have done.
     
  10. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    It´s the feeling that you get in your legs after you walk a long way, but I have it sometimes when I get out of bed in the morning.
     
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Oh, that one. I don't think we are sure what the biochemical correlates of that are - is it hyperlactaemia, is it excessive carbonic acid, is it a mineral deficiency...? I would love to know.

    Supportive of it being an excess of some kind of acid is the fact that it sometimes disappears quite fast when I take sodium bicarbonate, but only sometimes.
     
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  12. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Wow. your digestion must be good if you can take sodum bicarbonate.
     
  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    It's only good if I do.
     
  14. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    Hmm, maybe I will give it a go.
     
  15. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?

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    Why not read some of the threads about it before you try? Get an idea of whether it sounds likely to help you. Some people refer to it as baking soda. If you decide to try, try a low dose first (a good general rule when trying something).
     
    msf likes this.
  16. M Paine

    M Paine Senior Member

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    I'd like to know more and see more research into the correlation between various cytokine profiles and the gut epithelium microbiome. The paper recognizes, as one might expect, that the effects of antibiotics are transient. That the shift of Enterococcus and Streptococcus is returning to an 'unfavorable' level.

    That healthy controls were observed to have lower baseline levels of these organisms seems to suggest that something is happening with these CFS patients that favors those microbes.

    Perhaps that 'something' could be an immune mediated response? It would be an interesting exercise to separate CFS patients into groups via Cytokine profiles, and re-evaluate the gut microbiome in those patients.

    Additionally it would be interesting to measure the Virome of these patients, and it's relationship with the profile of the intestinal microbiome.

    It would seem that there is a great variation in the profile of one patient, to the next. It would seem logical to assume that sub-grouping the illness further might help to provide more targeted approaches to G.I. management.
     
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  17. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    I´m a patient of KDM, and he explained to me why these bacteria flourish - basically changes in the body favour the growth of these bacteria, but I´m sure you would have guessed that anyway. I think he believes that these changes are immune mediated.
     
  18. M Paine

    M Paine Senior Member

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    Did they recommend the low FODMAP diet?
     
  19. msf

    msf Senior Member

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    No, but when I told KDM I was on it, he said that it was a good diet to be on. I´m not sure why he doesn´t recommend trying it to everyone, but he does tell them to eat a diet low in simple sugars, so fructose is out.

    Has it helped you a lot? It´s the thing that has made the biggest difference (positive difference, that is) for me so far.
     
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  20. M Paine

    M Paine Senior Member

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    I suppose that people who have IBS symptoms like diarrhea, constipation, gas, bloating and/or cramping would stand to gain the most from low FODMAP diets.

    It would be interesting to know how the strains of bacteria mentioned in this paper respond to diets low in FODMAPs, however since it is likely that the immune system modulates the population of the microbiome, then it stands to reason that modulating diet alone may not be the most effective approach, and that modulating the immune system is a potential area for treatment strategy.
     

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