1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
AVIVA Semi-Finals: National ME/FM Action Network is competing for $100,000
The National ME/FM Action Network in Canada is competing for $100,000 for biomedical research of ME and FM in the Aviva Community Fund contest. With thanks to all who helped, they made it through the first round of voting into the Semi-Finals.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Sleep, cortisol, insulin--in relation to the gut (etc.!)

Discussion in 'Sleep' started by Gestalt, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

    Messages:
    520
    Likes:
    568
    Virginia
    I could never tolerate hormonal precursors or hormones themselves, although the less metabolized and closer to cholesterol, the better. Pregnenolone was much more tolerable than DHEA, for example. I suspect today, these would may provide a favorable response, in moderation. It is my hope, though, that we are influencing the cellular processes that will enable appropriate hormonal responses.

    I have, over time, observed improvement in my hormonal output. That afternoon hormonal "valley" has certainly improved. Enhanced hydroxylation can surely account for this, and I think the role of Vitamin D--which of course also requires hydroxylation--in protecting us from bacterial pathogens is, for good reason, tied to hydroxylation of corticosteriods and mineralcorticoids. In effect, the immune response is, in part, paired with the hydroxylation of steroids.

    Even before these secondary reactions participating in steroidogenesis, though, the De novo synthesis of cholesterol, which requires acetyl CoA, appears to be inhibited. This is that key part of the metabolism where glucose is converted into usable molecules to enter the Kreb's cycle, where acetyl CoA and NADH is synthesized. I think this bottleneck has to achieve a purpose of limiting oxidative stress and inhibiting glycolysis would do this.

    My impression is that the efficiency or flow through these decarboxylation reactions are changing based upon my some B vitamin issues I have experienced in recent weeks; at least with those that interact, at this part of the metabolism. Are you taking a B complex or taking them separately, and do any in particular produce any noticeable effects?
     
  2. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

    Messages:
    520
    Likes:
    568
    Virginia
    Your cortisol is bottoming out at 3:30, and your are being awakened by the catecholamines. Also, falling asleep in 30 seconds suggests that you are completely bypassing stage I sleep. I had the same thing. Like MeSci, this totally changed when i adopted a low grain diet, and it never returned even after I started eating more grains. You obviously have a number of features of disordered sleep. Do you wake up feeling like crap?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  3. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

    Messages:
    249
    Likes:
    241
    Canada
    Lol, way to pull a super biased source adreno. Yes, most people quit, and yes there is not much scientific support for it because there hasn't been much scientific study. While there may be a lack of "scientific evidence" due to "lack" of research, the anthropological evidence for polyphasic sleep is abundant. Sometimes anthropology can be more helpful than "science" when looking at things from an evolutionary-health perspective.

    Your experience has been very similar to mine. Take a look at the sleep cycle for people who normally sleep 8 hours.

    [​IMG]

    Sleep occurs in phases, and people often awaken briefly during REM phase. The deepest most rejuvenating sleep occurs at stage 4 and two cycles complete after roughly the first 4 hours of sleep. The next 4 hours are not nearly as rejuvenating as the stages are not as deep, which lead to fragmented sleep naturally.

    The theory is if you sleep only 4 hours, get up and sleep again 12-ish hours later, you can get another deep cycle in. Meaning in a 24hr time period you could perhaps get more deep delta sleep in if you split it up. The way to hypothetically get the best/most rest is to seemingly split up sleep into two 3.5-4 hour increments spaced 9-12hours apart.
     
  4. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,605
    Likes:
    1,969
    Tundras of Europa
    I am often changing around doses as I never seem to quite hit the optimal balance/ratio between them. Right now I take 1 Thorne Basic B complex, along with 1mg mB12, 25mg P5P, 300mg pantethine and some extra biotin. Sometimes I throw in some niacinamide before bed, although it doesn't always help.
     
  5. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

    Messages:
    175
    Likes:
    42
    I'm on a low-grain diet, unless you throw oats in with the other grains, which I don't. Close to 30% of my daily intake is eggs and oats.

    Define crap. I wake up feeling tired, but not sick or weak. When I do wake up anxious I'm sure it is catecholamines.
     
  6. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

    Messages:
    175
    Likes:
    42
    My wife reports not waking at all during the night, while I wake several times after my initial 4 hours. I call her an Olympic level sleeper, while I wake up every time the furnace kicks on or a squirrel runs across the roof.

    I don't dismiss polyphasic sleep, but with my schedule there's no way I can do it.
     
  7. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

    Messages:
    40
    Likes:
    22

    Interesting @xjhuez I have the same thing. I also consume oats, but no other grains. However, I had this before introducing oats to a gluten-free diet. RS doesn't help either. It does however, take me ±30min to fall asleep. In the last 5 to 10 years I can hardly recall times when I woke up feeling refreshed and energized, which is kinda crazy huh?!
     
  8. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

    Messages:
    40
    Likes:
    22
    Some off-topic observations:

    Regarding the sleep, cortisol and metabolism, I've made some changes and now I'm sleeping like a baby:
    - I was already doing sublingual B12 in the morning;
    - Added some slow yoga/mobility stuff the hour before bed.
    - No screens nor lights the last hour before bed;
    - ±20min meditation. This is an excellent, basic guided meditation session:
    https://www. youtube .com/watch?v=PECB_U4abWE (broke up the link because PH.me automatically embeds the video in the post)
    - 1 capsule of Onnit's New Mood: https://www.onnit.com/new-mood/
    - To counteract catabolic state during sleep I take some kefir, some nuts and some fat (butter or coconut oil) before bed.

    Out of all these things, looking back at earlier attempts to improve sleep, I def. feel that it's the New Mood that's really helping a lot. I also don't have to pee in the middle of the night. I wake up more energized and even in the short time I've been doing it I see more pronounced gains from weight lifting (seemingly confirming my suspicion that I wasn't gained due to the cortisol and catabolic issues during sleep).
     
    Gestalt likes this.
  9. rosie26

    rosie26 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes:
    1,401
    NZ
    Let us know if it helps @MeSci the 5HTP, my moods are up and down like a yo yo:rolleyes:
     
    MeSci likes this.
  10. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

    Messages:
    40
    Likes:
    22
    @MeSci Maybe try the new Mood as well? It contains both 5-HTP, L-tryptophan and Vitamin B6 to boost serotonin levels.
     
  11. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,605
    Likes:
    1,969
    Tundras of Europa
    You all do realize that 5-HTP has been associated with heart valve problems, right?
     
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,605
    Likes:
    1,969
    Tundras of Europa
    MeSci likes this.
  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,871
    Likes:
    4,631
    Cornwall, UK
    OK, thanks. I'm still going to try it, but at a modest dose (100g/day), at least to start with, which I had decided to do anyway, partly due to a tendency to be sensitive to things in ME. My low mood isn't severe, and there is no significant anhedonia, which there was when I had clinical depression 18 years ago.

    Hopefully I won't have to take it for long.
     
  14. snowathlete

    snowathlete

    Messages:
    2,251
    Likes:
    2,802
    UK
    Regarding 5-HTP, my brother did a lot of research into this because he takes it now for a sleep disorder he has. The important thing is not to take it will B6.
    A bunch of supplements come with B6 in with it, because it helps the 5-HTP get converted into serotonin. Great, right? Well, great if that's in your brain, but not so great if that's in your blood where it can negatively impact your heart valves.
    Basically, take 5-HTP if you like, but buy one which doesn't have the B6 in it. And don't take a B complex or anything like that at the same time.
     
    Little Bluestem and MeSci like this.
  15. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,871
    Likes:
    4,631
    Cornwall, UK
    I am finding so much conflicting info about 5-HTP, but will post it in my thread here rather than monopolise this thread!
     
  16. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,420
    Likes:
    4,817
    australia (brisbane)

    Interesting, i thought it was marketed as being able to cross the BBB better then other serotonin type supps like tryptophan which needs to be taken on an empty stomache.

    I wonder if they got the high serotonin and heart valve issue from the findings on the old fenphen diet pills???
     
  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,605
    Likes:
    1,969
    Tundras of Europa
    Probably. If you Google "cardiac fibrosis serotonin" you will find loads of research. It seems the fibrosis is activated by 5-HT2B agonism. Here is an example :http://jem.rupress.org/content/208/5/961.full
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
    heapsreal likes this.
  18. WoolPippi

    WoolPippi Senior Member

    Messages:
    185
    Likes:
    357
    Netherlands
    Many more things occur after the first 5 hours of sleep. I'm not sure lack of glucose is the main culprit of the rise of cortisol. Further more, using insuline to dampen it rises my eyebrows, insuline is a "poison".

    Two anecdotes:
    1. I am in low ketose (all fat diet) and my bloodsugars are absolutely level. Still cortisol rises in the morning.
    2. I wake after five hours of sleep, lie awake for 1,5 hours. Then I take some hydrocortisone. Then my body relaxes and I can get another two hours of good sleep. It needs it to get back to sleep. (but if I take it after the 5hr sleep I'll lie awake longer)

    My theory: it's not cortisol, it's noradrenaline, that keeps us awake.

    this sleeping pattern comes from MAO A mutation which fails to dampen the natural rise of noradrenaline after the first five hours. This rise is neccessary to go from nonREM to REMsleep. But not to the extent it does in our heads (we = people with MAO A signature)

    People with MAO A mutation have typically higher serotonine that those with the well fuctioning enzyme. Making for more melatonine. Making for sleep as soon as you hit the pillow in the evening.
     
    xjhuez likes this.
  19. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

    Messages:
    175
    Likes:
    42
    You take oral hydrocortisone? I don't think that's available for me, other than in skin cream.

    Perhaps relevant - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15486489 and http://www.journalsleep.org/Articles/290802.pdf
     
  20. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

    Messages:
    249
    Likes:
    241
    Canada
    I'm not sure how I can take you seriously calling insulin a "poison". Without it you die...it is absolutely necessary for human life. It's also incredibly anabolic, something the low carb/ketogenic fanatics don't like to admit.

    A Harvard study shows Ketosis is a good way to raise cortisol, the opposite of what you want here. Long term Hydrocortisone use is also not good for the body. The fact you need to take indicates there is something wrong with you to begin with. Ketosis is known to put considerable demand on the endocrine system especially if you are in a calorie deficit. The Inuit fyi were never in ketosis. Ketogenic diets are very bad for your guts, and will seriously compromise the production of melatonin, serotonin and dopamine. Ketosis also destroys your glucose tolerance making you seem diabetic when you are not as shown with the Inuit in the previous link. Diabetes-warrior used potato starch to empirically improve his resting blood glucose levels.

    If you look at the data, noradenaline tracks with cortisol. They are not mutually exclusive. You can't blame one over the other because they release together in response to stress.

    Thus the point is to remove that stress thus preventing the release of stress hormones to begin with! MAO A status is an irrelevant factor in the case of pre-stress response. The body considers starvation a stress, so preventing the starvation response from occurring when you are trying to sleep might be a good idea.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2014

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page