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Skyline's Journal: Progress & Experiments

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Skyline, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    umm interesting post on the lithium. Ive been taking lithium orotate for over a year due to having basicaly nil on a hair test. Unlike others at this site thou, Ive got no improvement at all with taking it (Im taking a full pill of the standard supplement dose). Im about to do another hair test soon to try to see if its going into my body properly or not. Your post is making me wonder what it may be doing to me.

    thanks
  2. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    taniaaust1 I would get your lipid profile (HDL, LDL, triglycerides checked) just to be safe. From what I've read so far, it's not something I would want to be taking for a long time - although it has worked for me very well. I'm hoping to taper it out/ find the root cause behind it later on.
  3. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    This Month's Experiment - February 2013

    I'm going to try to keep to a rhythm of one new experiment / month to be able control data and make constant progress.

    This month I've decided to focus on my gut which has given me quite a bit of trouble - and in my crashes is typically the first thing to show a sign that something is wrong and the last thing to recover to normalish state.

    To improve / heal the gut I'm going to use daily - frequent exposure to 'gut healing' items:
    1. Butyrate - this will come from grass fed ghee that I make (to avoid the dairy sensitivities)
    2. Fermented foods to provide good bacteria (Kimchi, sauerkraut and other fermented foods - I'm focusing on quality and buying locally from people I trust)
    3. Probiotics - I have 3 different probiotics, one of which seemed to work very well for me in the past (Bifidobacterium Bacillus). The other two recommended by MetaMetric on my gut profile to fix my specific imbalances (bifidobacterium longum, saccharomyces boullardii).

    I'm tracking my stool (frequency and appropriate consistency) and any changes there as well as any gut symptoms and their severity on a scale of 1 to 10 daily. I'll compare the results at end of month to previous months. Ideally I should get a stool test at the end of the month, I'll try to work out the logistics on that as it'll have to be shipped round the world.
  4. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Hair Metals Test results back with Yasko - confirms my need for Lithium and SHMT support.

    Good News: My neuropathy has receded most of the time - finger feeling came back. I'm really happy about this. Through trial and error I've linked this to SAMe, shortcut methylation and Molybdenum supplementation. As long as I have those in place the neuropathy is kept at bay.

    Other: I'm getting more discomfort in the stomach and some loose stools (better than the constipation from before).

    Awaiting some other tests: Methylation Panel (Dr. amy), Methylation pathways panel (health diagnostics).

    Reading around I discovered that Coconut and Chocolate are linked to sulfites - which of course fits my CBS+. Since I cut both of them out I haven't had the deep crashes that I had before - progress.

    I'm getting my monthly bloodwork done this Saturday to see how everything is going - I'm looking at adding an inflammation marker like TNFalpha (as my CRP is low and not showing any activity). I'd like to find a blood biomarker that I can use give me an idea if I'm moving too fast (i.e. inflammation shooting up).

    The further I get into this the more I feel that my recovery is built on every hour spent reading/ learning the biochemistry and nutrigenomics. I've made many mistakes (some silly) that become apparent when I learn how things work to a deeper level.
    helen1 likes this.
  5. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1 Senior Member

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    With the fixing the gut stuff... that can take quite a time to work. At naturopathy collage we were always told that it can take up to a year to get a gut back to normal after a course of antibiotics. The probotics can take time.
  6. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    More Good News:
    - My neuropathy has all but gone now. Rarely I get some slight issue, typically when I'm very tired and have overdone it.
    - Restless legs that was becoming an annoying issue has gone
    - Gut appears to be much better (based on stool consistency, frequency, and lack of discomfort - need to get retested)
    - Headaches all but gone

    What Remains:
    - Fatigue - I still get tired when I overdo it - which is related to anything physical/ extended (e.g. walking around city for the day will do it). I can't exercise yet also.
    - Some stiffness in right leg when I'm walking for a while.
    - General lower energy (I am working/ studying now, but have less stamina than before - this is related to mental energy)

    I continue to work through the Yasko protocol, with Rich Van Konyenburg's adjucts. This is the main part of what I'm doing - I add on pieces here and there based on research or other interesting materials I read. Russell Blaylock's more recent work is something that has given me a more general understanding of how I'm fixing myself.

    What I'm doing:
    1. Methylation with Yasko (more detailed/ specific to my mutations)
    2. Reduce metabolic activity as much as possible to reduce oxidative load on body (and burden for antioxidants like Glutathione to work with)
    3. Increased intake of antioxidants to reduce oxidative load

    I'm still waiting for my Methylation Pathways Panel to come back to see my Glutathione status - should be any day now.
    taniaaust1 likes this.
  7. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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  8. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    I've been working on my overall approach to fixing ME which is multi-factorial. I don't believe there is any one cause, and therefore any one solution. That's why different doctors and researchers have had varying results with different protocols and with different people.

    The way I'm looking at things currently is influenced mostly by the work of Rich Van Konyenburg, Amy Yasko, Russell Blaylock, Martin Pall, John Chia and Garth Nicholson. I'm sure I will change this as time goes on, but currently it guides how I'm approaching it.

    I believe our greatest hope is to tackle each step of the 'disease process' and enable our body to overcome the 'negative feedback mechanism that you see in this diagram. This way of looking at ME puts "mitochondrial disease" at the heart of the 'chronic' problem because it creates the negative feedback loop by which the disease enters a vicious declining circle (the steady decline of health of many people afflicted by the disease).

    This overview is simplistic and doesn't cover everything. It's purpose for me is to simplify things down to the most important aspects, so that I can focus acting where it counts and has an impact.

    I'm interested in others feedback on this and any related research that you may have seen that I can look into related to this.

    Note: Thiol + Enzyme antioxidants include the Glutathione peroxidase and glutathione reductase that you will have seen in Rich Von Konyenburg's work.

    [​IMG]
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I fully agree with the above. It very much makes sense.
  10. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Thanks for the feedback adreno. Always appreciated.

    I caught flu that set me back the last couple of weeks and realized as a consequence the importance of trying to limit exposure to any other pathogens. I imagined my oxidative stress jumped pretty high based on how I've been feeling in comparison to before - which was starting to feel nearly normal.
  11. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Based on @richvank's observations my reduced to oxidized glutathione ratio is lower than seen with most CFS cases - this indicated higher oxidative stress (mine is at 6, CFS typical is 8/9 and normal is 14 or so).

    As this aspect stands out more for me I'm going to focus on it for a while. I've been looking into the research on the link between emotional/ general stress and oxidative stress (and measures such as TNF-alpha and IL-6). Also how interventions with yoga, meditation and Casual Video Games can lower the cytokines/ inflammation and oxidative stress. It looks promising.

    On the other hand the area of using anti-oxidants to lower oxidative stress is nebulous and the research looks conflicting, even potentially negative. Meaning that taking more antioxidants doesn't seem to help.

    I'm going to get a baseline of my TNF-alpha and IL-6 levels, and hope that these could be another set of biomarkers that will be useful in tracking my progress. Potentially more accessible than the Methylation Pathways Panel.

    Another area I'm looking into is raising glutathione directly in addition to the SMP of richvank. Rich commented on it many times that it could be helpful, however Yasko recommends against it if you have a CBS mutation (which I do, although not a very serious one).
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    You live in a really polluted area, right?

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2013/161687/

    Broccoli extract might be valuable for protection.
    Skyline likes this.
  13. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    adreno Thanks so much for this reference. I wasn't aware that there were any specific studies looking at the issue like this. This opens up a whole new area for me to look into studies for.

    I have spent the last 10 years in highly polluted cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu, Bangkok and Hong Kong) and thought it was probably part of my CFS event. I moved away from Bangkok last month because of this - I'm currently in a non-polluted small english town, but I'm looking for a place in South America to go next month to completely eliminate the air pollution factor (and pesticides etc.). This study and others I can find will support the effort I'm putting into that. Great!

    I'll look into the broccoli extract. Have already been taking some the last month, perhaps that has helped more with my improvement than I was aware...
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090302133218.htm
  15. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Congrats on this - I think this was a really good call :)
  17. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Thanks for this too. Great.

    Adding this into the mix: http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Broccoli-Sprouts-Extract-60-Tablets/2456

    There's a lot of research on Sulforaphane and its support of Glutathione Reductase, Glutathione-S-Transferase... I did see one study warning that some previous studies had variable results which they felt was due to genetic polymorphisms with the above enzymes.
  18. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I'm curious if you've tried glutathione since posting this a few weeks ago. I was taking glutathione regularly, but I'm not sure if it helped or not. I read an article by Dr. Nathan (who uses Rich's SMP on his CFS patients) where he suggested that if you take glutathione regularly it could send a message to the body to stop producing glutathione naturally. I have no idea if this is based on any studies, but since I'm taking so many other supplements I decided to stop. There were a few times where I was experiencing anxiety (possibly from methylation, but I'm not sure) and taking a glutathione sublingual calmed me down sometimes. There's a small amount of coenzymated B2 in my glutathione sublingual so that could be part of it. I also heard from someone say that they were able to tolerate liposomal glutathione after doing Rich's protocol for awhile. I thought it would be the other way around. Once you're doing methylation for a time you wouldn't need to take glutathione anymore. I have been curious what Rich's final word (I hate phrasing that way) was on taking glutathione in regards to methylation or in general. I found this from March 2012 where he was asked about it and it sounds like he hasn't heard much feedback (positive or negative) in regards to glutathione supplementation.
    =========================​
    Thank you Rich for taking the time to inform us of this. Its interesting. Does this not suggest that we would benefit from a large intake of Glutathione along with the B12 then? Is there a way to get alot of Glutathione into the cells at the same time?

    I think that's an excellent question. Historically, from about 1999 to 2004, I encouraged PWMEs to try to boost glutathione in various ways. Doing that alone did give some people symptomatic improvements, but they were temporary. Others could not tolerate it, and we did lots of guessing about why. When I caught on to the methylation cycle problem in late 2004 from the autism researchers, I shifted to encouraging PWMEs to boost their methylation cycles and stopped promoting glutathione boosting, and that has worked out better in terms of results.

    However, this treatment has been difficult for some people to take, especially initially, and I think that one of the problems is that it probably lowers glutathione even further initially, because more of the homocysteine gets converted to methionine, and less is available to go into making cysteine and glutathione. So I have started suggesting that people might try adding either some liposomal glutathione or some acetylglutathione, because I think they are most able to get glutathione into the cells. I haven't had much feedback on whether this has worked for people or not, and I don't know how many have tried it.

    Now, the question you're asking is what about getting a lot of glutathione into the cells while also putting in B12. I don't know how that would work out. One concern I have is that I think it's important not to ramp up the methylation cycle, the B12 function, the folate metabolism, and glutathione too fast in a person who has been ill for an extended time. These things will make major changes to the metabolism, and I think it's best to take it slow enough so that things can adjust as you go. I do think that for one thing, it could mobilize toxins a lot faster than they could be excreted, and that could make a person pretty miserable.

    I also think that there could be a problem in recycling the glutathione fast enough when it becomes oxidized in a body that is under a lot of oxidative stress. This could shift the ratio of glutathione to oxidized glutathione too much, and that could affect the biochemical reactions in a big way.

    So I don't have a very good answer for you. Don't have experience to go on, and the system is too complicated for me to figure it out on the basis of theory. Sorry about that.

    Rich
  20. Skyline

    Skyline Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus97, yes I have tried adding glutathione via:
    A) Directly via lipoceutical glutathione
    B) Indirectly via grass-fed whey protein powder

    My liver ALTs have started climbing the last couple of months, so I have been aiming to reduce toxin load - that meant I cut out the lipoceutical glutathione, as it is processed by the liver.

    For the whey I'm not sure if it is a good idea for me with CBS - I have been keeping it to small amounts and am not sure of the results. It's use may correlate with headaches I have been getting lately on and off, but overall I am doing better (however this could be linked to other things I've been adding in).

    Using whey to raise glutathione levels has the most support in research studies, and I don't see how that could lead to the issues you mentioned about your body getting used to it (since you aren't directly providing glutathione).

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