1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Phoenix Rising Adds Two New Board Members
Mark Berry introduces the new President of Phoenix Rising, Dr. Gary Solomon, and welcomes Professor Jonathan Edwards to the Phoenix Rising Board of Directors.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Six strains of XMRV so far!

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by FernRhizome, Apr 10, 2010.

  1. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes:
    42
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Here is why Baraniuk thinks XMRV could be significant.

    I love that there are many brains looking at this; it means I don't have to think too hard, and someone (you know who you are Dr. Yes) will correct me if I've gotten it wrong!
  2. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes:
    42
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Here is an article from WebMD Health News, Dec. 1, 2005.

  3. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    263
    how does one access the library to read this full article?

    thanks!
    rrrr
  4. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes:
    42
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Rrrr,

    There are two ways to access the library.

    1. Reach 100 posts and become a "senior" member of Phoenix Rising. (If you need help with this, we can start you a thread and ask you questions. You only have 29 posts to go.)

    2. PM a PR administrator or moderator and ask that they allow you access to the library.

    Reaching 100 posts might be more fun. We'll cheer you on.

    :victory:​
  5. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    439
    Raleigh, NC
    I can certainly understand some unease at this statement but I would note that we're kind of immersed in the pro-viral side of CFS. I would hazard to guess that the research community in general is very cautious (skeptical) about the ability of EBV and HHV-6 and other factors to cause this disease.

    At the Symposium on Viruses in Balt in 2008 Dr. Gallo basically said you've gotta figure out what you think HHV6 does otherwise its never going to get any credibility. Researchers are investigating too many different angles about HHV-6 - too many that he thinks it could possibly be responsible for. That field has a long way to go to attain real credibility in the research community.

    I think the fact that antiviral drugs have been very effective for some patients obviously says something about those viruses and I think the evidence for viral reactivation is strong but are they causative; I would guess not causative but one part of the picture for some patients.

    Both EBV and HHV6 have gained ground in CFS in recent years. At one time they were both thought to be 'it', were pretty much thrashed, and then have risen back up. That process could be what he's referring to.

    Even the NIH has said, after pretty blankly stating at one point that they're not interested in pathogens, that they do have some interest in pathogens in CFS now. They did (finally) fund the WPI's big immune study.
  6. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    Messages:
    7,025
    Likes:
    439
    Raleigh, NC
    If you read the recent newsletter on him and you know that Baraniuk is very committed to a physiological interpretation of chronic fatigue syndrome. I don't know where he stands on pathogens; he's been looking in the spinal fluid for pathogens in his brain proteome study and he hasn't found anything. Its funny how little clarity there is on pathogens in the field at large; in his latest book Dr. Natelson said he always tests for pathogens because if you can find them then he can do something about them -but he says he hardly ever finds them! He's pretty conservative in his treatments but he's not stodgy with his testing. He even tests for Lyme disease now. Is he using the wrong tests? Does he have a different set of patients? Unless I missed it I don't think there's anything in the CAA's Medscape Physician education program written by Dr. Bateman and Dr. Lapp on pathogens or antivirals.....Its still a pretty fragmented field treatment wise. You have Cheney with his stem cells, Dr. Peterson and with his antivirals, Holtorf with his hormones and physicians who don't use any of those.
  7. JillBohr

    JillBohr Senior Member

    Messages:
    247
    Likes:
    0
    Columbus, OH
    I am not sure if I can do this without whiskey. I actually ate Haggis (only once) during a Burns Night. I enjoyed the mashed potatos and the whisky but I hid most of my Haggis in the taters. We should have a Burns night next January and bring up the Mouse thread again.
  8. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,397
    Likes:
    263
    thanks, gracenotes. what a funny way to access the library. i wonder if there is some way to tell folks that this is how to access the library, instead of just that notice that says you can't access the library...?

    xxoo
    rrrr
  9. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

    Messages:
    1,508
    Likes:
    42
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Good question Rrrr. I would take that up with the Cort. Now you only have 23 posts to go.
  10. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

    In the past there have been several viral candidates proposed as causative agents of ME/cfs

    Any causative agent must be able to account for all the observed bioabnormalities in ME patients reported in studies involving correctly diagnosed patients.

    In particular if a viral ageant is proposed as the causative ageant the properies of that virus must be able to account for

    ! post exertional malaise induced by physical or cognitive effort
    2The abnormal expression of a large number of genes

    The viral ageants so far do not exhibit the properties that can account for those observations and neither do Hervs..

    The following attracted my attention

    XMRV inserts into the start "switches" of genes

    XMRV was originally discovered in the start sequence of a CREB gene.

    CREB/CRE proteins are involved in gene regulation in all bodily systems

    Hence there is apossible mechanism whereby XMRV gan interfere with gene regulatory functions

    But there are a wide range of abnormally regulated genes reported.

    Rertoviruses are unique in being able to act as transposons in short they can move about the same chromosomes or different chromosomes in the same cells and or different cells

    Hence XMRV has the potential to be a moblie gene regulator effecting the regulation of different genes at the same time or different times

    Gammaretroviruses in general and MuLV in particular have been shown to to indirectly(Via NO production) and directly(via integration)damage mitochondria.Damage to Mitochondria (even if slight) would produce PEM.

    No other class of virus has been shown to produce mitochondrial damage in this manner

    Nitric oxide concentrations are elevated by the activation of IFN alpha.INFalpha is upregulated by CREB cre systems.XMRV integrates into CREB genes

    Xmrv as a causative agent explains the observations in a way that no other class of virus can

    The other parts of the paper that drew my attention was the following

    and

    d prostate cancers

    finally

    Now this author found the information from the science paper easily. I must ask why Mclure and Groom found it so difficult.

    I must also ask why two renowned retrovirologists looking for a RNA virus did not look for viral RNA

    I read the excellent article with Proff Goff.Bearing in mind that there are at least six strains of XMRV one of his sentences hit me like a club between the eyes.

    He said that you only have to get your pcr primer wrong by only two neuclotides and you would not find the virus you were looking for if it was a different strain.

    McClure and Groom would never have found different strain because their primer was based on a partial V62 clone
  11. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

    Messages:
    2,806
    Likes:
    1,897
    UK


    Gerwyn now if you've worked it out lets hope others can, quickly.
  12. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,410
    Likes:
    1,209
    London UK
    Yes, whatever is causing CFS has to be VERY recent, very new, I don't think it passed "within the last 100 or so generations" or “less than 1000 years ago” as we would have seen CFS in humans sooner.

    IMO only two versions are possible, either whatever is causing CFS has entered humans VERY recently, less than 100 years ago.

    Or the causative agent/s have been around for longer but something new in the environment (toxins, pesticides etc) have caused IT to mutate and become pathogenic.

    That is why I don’t buy the theory of “eating mice” causing xmrv to jump species – people have eaten mice throughout history, if nothing else then out of necessity throughout long periods of hunger and wars, and unfortunately there have been plenty of those in human history. Same with HIV – if it jumped from monkeys because of some odd tribal customs, or some naughty monkeys biting men, well those things would have been happening throughout history and still HIV waited to jump over until now.
  13. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

    no eating mice is nothing at all to do with it >I go with coffin and 60 years
  14. Dr. Yes

    Dr. Yes Shame on You

    Messages:
    867
    Likes:
    22
    I think you're right Gerwyn.. as long, of course, as you consider a single causative agent model. However, a virus (like XMRV) may be a prerequisite primary causative agent but not the sole one in development of some or all pathology. The model of XMRV being the primary cause but requiring co-factors (perhaps certain herpes viruses, for example) to generate ME/CFS seems to be favored by Mikovits at present. That would make causation a little more complicated to establish, though it would still be easy enough to demonstrate that XMRV infection is necessary for ME/CFS.
    Not so far, no. But HHV-6, for one, is getting more and more interesting. HHV-6B has been shown to cause damage to and dysfunction of mitochondrial membranes and christae. HHV-6 has also been found to integrate into chromosomes as its mode of latency instead of episomally in nuclei - of course that is in telomeres only, and it does not have the transposable/ recombinant abilities of a retrovirus.

    That said, XMRV definitely seems like the best candidate (by far) for the simplest explanation for the observed pathology - a single causative agent model.

    Kerr found 88 genes with differential expression in CFS patients. It might be interesting to look for XMRV sequences in the sequences of some of these abnormally regulated genes, or for characteristic deletions. I don't know off hand how closely Kerr looked at the genes in question.

    Do you know if any of those 'great 88' were CREB/CRE genes, by the way?

    Yes that caught my interest too (after being reminded by this paper about the nucleotide differences in the isolates found in the Science study, that is). Does anyone know if the WPI has specifically commented on that aspect of the methodologies in the UK studies? I know they suggested the possibility of a different strain, but I don't remember if they suggested PCR didn't work because of nucleotide variance with the primers used...
  15. jewel

    jewel Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    Likes:
    8
    Very cute, Bullybeef, the 'squeak!' I'll have to remember that!
  16. Gerwyn

    Gerwyn Guest

    hi Doc
    Yes to all.CREB/CRE proteins would be involved in thr regualtion of all 88 but with different cobinding proteins.only retros bind within start codons.Whatever does this must in some way be manipulative at the genomic level and be able to explain both observations. As a geek fact you only have to delete three nucleotides in mito dna to reduce output by 60%.A gamma could easily do that at very very low titre

    I cant find anything on HHV6B in vivo Can you help?

    cheers
  17. jewel

    jewel Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    Likes:
    8
    Ok, it took me so long to post, that in the meantime, there has been amazingly interesting, serious discussion of this article. He seems like another interesting researcher to follow. Thanks to all of you for your analysis for those of without 1) access to the primary source 2) background in the sciences. Thanks, J.
  18. jewel

    jewel Senior Member

    Messages:
    195
    Likes:
    8
    It is interesting that it takes such miniscule impact to effectively reduce mitochondrial output...
  19. strawberry

    strawberry Guest

    Fascinating discussion. I was wondering whether XMRV could account for Kerr's gene expression findings... thanks Gerwyn for sharing your thoughts on that.
  20. justinreilly

    justinreilly Stop the IoM & P2P! Adopt CCC!

    Messages:
    2,490
    Likes:
    1,175
    NYC (& RI)
    Agreed!
    _____________________

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page