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Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madeleine,

    I didn't try to test the drops for absorption. It would be interesting to see how long a 50mg dose or series of doses in rapid succession, need to be held in order to duplicate the amount of cobalamin in the urine from a 7.5-12.5mg SC injection or 50mg of the Jarrow. Logically I would expect to see a similar absorption curve. There used to be doubt whether b12 could be absorbed in that way at all because of the large size of the molecule. My inclination was always to test out theories and opinions to find out what actually worked. You could perform the tests and let us know.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pam,

    Niacin, hmmm. Tracing down individual component effects can be difficult with multi-ingredient mixes. There is a fine tuning needed and active comparisons between different brands and types that needs to be done. Did the 200mg of niacinamide give you the headaches too?

    Another thing is that many of these kinds of things that you are finding are temporary truths as it were. They may only be true at certain stages of healing. I had an experience with CoQ10. Early on in taking the mb12, before I added adb12, CoQ10 upped my Bp 50 points. That wasn't true before mb12 and it hasn't been true since 2 years after which also included adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate. It was a period of unknown length at the beginning of healing and incomplete supplements and of unknown cause. As mb12/adb12/mfolate changes my responses to all sorts of things I have to do some retesting after giving things a chance to heal post folic acid. It has already caused another episode of low potassium. So watch out. Whatever changed that has been the "most limiting factor" can cause all sorts of changes that cascade out from there. There is no "final" answer.
  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Rich -

    You've sort of answered my question! I've been holding the drops until I can't hold the saliva any more. Since this isn't difficult, and I don't know what kind of test I could perform, I'll keep doing it. I don't want to assume too much on only day 2, but instead of lying on my bed reading for hours every day, I've gardened (sitting, pulling vines) for 2 hours both days. It's pretty extraordinary.

    Madeleine
  4. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd

    No I didn't get a migraine with 200 mg niacinamide but didn't notice anything much beneficial either, certainly not energy-wise. Today is day 3 of the 1/2 tab Basic B complex plus 1/2 tab MB12, 1 Carnitine Fum and 1/2 Metafolin with my usual 3 Basic Nutrients and again good energy but did get a mild headache on waking which cleared quite easily with just 1 paracetemol and 1 ibrofen. I am not surprised I had a bad head because I did a lot of physical stuff in the afternoon which led to some pain and exhaustion in my body but did rest well after.

    Again this afternoon I have reallly done too much cleaning. That's 2 days in a row. This wouldn't normally happen but I have a flat which I need to rent out. Did pay for somebody to clean it but she hasn't done a good job and also I needed to clean the outside windows and surrounds so this is what I did for about 1 1/2 hours solid. Have had to take more cortisol to compensate because I had developed sweating together with bad pain in my lower back and legs and shoulders after this so know its too much. However there isn't much more to do and I won't do any more cleaning till end of the week at the earliest because I know I am really pushing it. Also it means I cannot then go for a walk with my dog and I much prefer to do this.

    I take on board what you are saying about there being no final answer and yes I am sure our bodies are changing all the time. Have to say I am not missing the ADB12 effect at all at the moment on this new B complex plus the Thornes multi.

    The problem of being dependant on the cortisol I take further complicates the issue of stamina. How much of the fatigue I experience when doing physical work is due to cortisol running out and how much is due to the ATP not being made and/or being replenished as shown in a special blood test I had done here in the UK. Or more likely its a bit of both I guess.

    Pam
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pam,

    How much of the fatigue I experience when doing physical work is due to cortisol running out and how much is due to the ATP not being made and/or being replenished as shown in a special blood test I had done here in the UK. Or more likely its a bit of both I guess.


    There is another thing you can try to boost post exercise recovery of ATP, d-ribose. Also, alpha lipoic aicd can boost the effectiveness of the adb12 - l-carnitine-fumarate pair.
  6. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Madeleine.

    I'm glad to hear that your initial response has been favorable. I hope this continues, but please be aware that as the methylation cycle function improves, the sulfur metabolism comes back to normal operation, and this causes the detoxication system to start operating more normally again, too, which results in a "house cleaning" which involves mobilizing stored toxins in order to deliver them to the kidneys and liver for excretion. That process can produce some unpleasant symptoms for a while, so it tends to be a "mixed bag."

    With regard to the rate at which the drops can be absorbed sublingually, I just don't know. I do know that Dr. Yasko has switched the autistic children to these drops, and I gather that the response has been favorable. I realize that there's a limit to how long a person can avoid swallowing, when saliva is being generated!

    Best regards,

    Rich
  7. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    I find sublingual pills way easier to hold, push it into my upper lip and it lasts ans hour. I agee Madeleine it's tough to hold and I bet it's not absorbing very well with alot of saliva.
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I do better when I do the b12 drops first and then the methylmate separately. I can hold each one longer than both of them together. "Do better" means hold the drops in my mouth longer. I don't know if holding the drops longer affects my health.
  9. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Does anyone know if these are sublingual, do we need to hold them to absorb under our tongue? Nothing on the bottle states either way.

    Also Rich I've asked a few times, do you know of any other mitochondrial patients that have tried your protocol? I'm wondering if you know of any that have been helped?
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Toddm1960.

    Dr. Yasko developed these drops primarily for use in autistic children. As such, I think that just getting them into the mouth is sufficient, but putting them under the tongue should improve the absorption, because of good contact with the mucosal tissue.

    I'm sorry that I did not respond to your question about mito disease earlier. I have difficulty keeping up with the email traffic, which seems to be getting heavier. I don't know of mito disease patients who have tried this protocol. I think it's possible that a patient with a genetic mito disease would also suffer from additional mito dysfunction as a result of the mechanisms involved in the GD-MCB hypothesis. To the degree that is true, I think this protocol could help. I recommend running the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute methylation pathways panel to see if there is a partial methylation cycle block and glutathione depletion. If these are present, I think this protocol is likely to help. Contact information is pasted below.

    Best regards,

    Rich


    Methylation Pathways Panel

    This panel will indicate whether a person has a partial methylation cycle block and/or glutathione depletion. I recommend that this panel be run before deciding whether to consider treatment for lifting the methylation cycle block. I am not associated with the lab that offers this panel.

    The panel requires an order from a physician or a chiropractor. The best way to order the panel is by fax, on a clinicians letterhead.


    Available from:

    Health Diagnostics and Research Institute
    540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 2300
    South Amboy, NJ 08879
    USA
    Phone: (732) 721-1234
    Fax: (732) 525-3288

    Lab Director: Elizabeth Valentine, M.D.

    Dr. Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., is willing to help clinicians with interpretation of the panel by phone.


    Rich Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.
    Independent Researcher and Consultant
  11. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Thank you Rich for your response, I guess having so many posts to check is a good thing.......it means plenty of people are trying your protocol. :thumbsup:

    I'm surprised no mito patients have tried this yet. Even more surprised more people with a CFS diagnosis haven't had a biopsy looking for mito dysfunctions. I'll keep you updated on how it goes, so far not feeling any different good or bad. I should talk to my doctor about getting the panel run. Again thanks for the help :D
  12. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    todd,

    Can you explain how to get tested for mito dysfunction? I am currently doing a (modified) simplified methylation protocol, with added supplements to boost the mitochondrial energy. But I have never done a proper medical test for mito deficiency (just muscle testing through a naturopath) and have heard that mito disorders are hard to catch? Is this true in your experience?
  13. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    Hi Leela,

    You need to work with your doctor, the place to start is with metabolic screening with blood and urine. IMO the best way to confirm a break down in mitochondrial function is with a fresh tissue tested muscle biopsy. I went to Atlanta and saw Dr. Shoffner, at the time he was one of only two places in the U.S. doing fresh tissue testing. Since then I know of at least 3 more now and I'm sure more to come. I've heard of one company testing a DNA swab type test, once it's confirmed and cheaper many more people will be tested.

    I don't know alot about Dr. Myhill's testing but maybe with her case being cleared we'll see more of her tests being used to diagnos mitochondrial function over here.

    Good luck with your protocol, let us know how you continue to do. I hope your doctor is open to more testing and that it gives you the answers you're looking for.
  14. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    Thank you, todd. Always good to have inside info from patients!
  15. Lisa

    Lisa Senior Member

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    Hi Rich!

    All this looks great for your new simplified protocol. :)

    I had a question regarding the multivitamin in it. Is the protocol dependent on it being exactly the General Vitamin Neurological Formula or would a different good multi work?

    I was thinking of going with Thorne Research Basic Nutrients IV.

    Would it be reasonably as effective or are some of the other ingredients (NAC, ALA, Pine Bark, Milk Thistle, Intrinsic Factor, TMG, Nucleotide complex, and carnitine) in the Neurological Formula of key importance?

    Thanks for all your continued work to help people find healing.

    Also Belated Happy Birthday!! :balloons:

    Hugs, Lisa :Retro smile:
  16. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Rich -

    I've been on your new simplified protocol for 2 weeks now. I had a big uplift in energy in the first few days, and then gradual drop-plateau, drop-plateau. Now I'm just a bit better than when I started. The only new developments have been gradual healing of life-long psoriasis, and occasional overheating/drenching sweat, absolutely coinciding with doing this protocol. I'm years past hot flashes, and this doesn't feel the same.

    I plan to stay on this protocol for at least a month, but should I tweak it at all at this point?

    Thanks!

    Madeleine
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madeleine,

    I held off answering to give Rich a chance to answer as he is more familiar with the course of things with the simplified protocol. First I would like to say is that you are actually having some rather significant effects already. The overheating and drenching sweat is pretty typical of getting b12 going after a deficiency. I think this happens as the mitochondria start functioning again but the control system hasn't gotten used to the higher rate of energy production. I went through a lot of this too. Also, I have never settled back to being so cold as I used to be. I still get a sweated up very easily now but then again I was able to work physically in the garden building raised bed boxes and digging and all that for 6 hours yesterday and am just fine today and can do more physical work. I was less beat at the end than my 26 year old son who was helping me.

    The drop and plateau after a big boost is also pretty common. It might be missing nutrients that get exhausted when the system turns on so then it turns off. The low item builds up more and things switch on again until exhausted. This could be l-carnitine fumarate or magnesium or methylfolate or maybe even potassium or D-Ribose or something else or combination of things that is a little short, but not totally lacking.

    radual healing of life-long psoriasis,

    And this is great. There is a lot of correlation between psoriasis and b12 deficiency though causality is hard to be sure of.

    As far as "energy" goes, the feeling and perception of energy is one thing, capacity is something else. We feel things the most when it's a change. Despite feeling more energy, if one is debilitated there is not any change in capacity until one increases activity SLOWLY and carefully, doing just a little more each day which stimulates muscle development and mitochondria development that make for the real changes in capacity.

    This is a time in which you might want to consider adding or increasing things beyond the simplified protocol; concentrating first on basics such as magnesium and potassium, calcium and D, C and A etc. This is getting the foundations established. Real healing puts a strain on the body's resources. That you are forming tissue you can see in the psoriasis changes likely indicates other tissues are healing as well. Epithelial tissues like skin include the entire digestive system, lungs, bladder, and all interfaces to the outside world. Potassium is very important and should not be overlooked. A sustained lack can be dangerous.
  18. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Freddd, thank you for your response. I have kept a daily log of how I feel physically and mentally in every area I could think of. So if things like energy capacity are changing slowly, I can look back to day one and see what I was actually doing. Thanks for encouraging me to do that.

    I'm taking 6 of the holistic health vitamins a day. Well, I got lazy and only took the morning doses for a few (OK, a lot of) days, but I don't have trouble taking 6 (spread out). I also take 250mg magnesium, a scoop of monolaurin, and 5mg biotin. There's a hung jury re. calcium right now, with researchers finding a problem with it for women - I can't remember what it was. This matters because my dietary restrictions include avoidance of milk products.

    I don't mind taking more supplements if my 6 vitamins aren't sufficient. They're giving me 5000 A, 500 C, 400 D, 25 calcium (!), and 5 (!) potassium citrate. I guess I do need some supplementation. Suggestions are gratefully accepted! Or if it's easier for you I can go to you protocol...but you have a HUGE list, and then it will be very hard to figure out what actually helped.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Maddie,

    Yes it is a huge list. Let's look at some basics. 400mg (typically 4x99 actually 396mg) in two doses of potassium could be a real good idea. Pay attention. If it changes things you need to note what your early low potassium symptoms are. Vitamin D 3000-5000. If the multi has NAC in it I would strongly suggest ditching that. It can cause major problems. Realistically osteoporosis is a more realistic potential problem so calcium such as in a calcium citrate supplement, maybe 500mg/day especially since you don't drink milk. 10,000 iu A not including beta carotene. In a couple of weeks the Metafolin would be a good try as that is often a major difference, whether the folinic acid causes a paradoxical folate deficiency or is just not terribly active Again, after a month you would be able to tell if you switched to Metafolin. Somewhere along the way I would certainly suggest adding the adb12 and the mb12. The thing is if you are going to know what works, most of the items may not make any difference until the mb12/adb12 are started. That was the interesting thing for me, that nothing else made any difference until AFTER the mb12, then almost everything made a diffference I would always suggest the active b12s because those are usually the most limiting factors, then as you add in the other things you know what they are doing. I think it is sort of a waste of time to try to pick out each of the basics separately which is why there is the multivitamin in the simplified because the basics really are the basics. I'm sorry to say that even with hycbl the lack of mb12/adb12 may still be the most limiting factors for 200+ symptoms. However, you won't know which ones or to what extent without trying hycbl first. So upgrade the basics to allow the hycbl to do it's best. After the mb12/adb12 comes the l-carnitine fumarate etc. If you have a lot of fatigue these can make a huge change in energy that decreases much more slowly for most as long as the basics are in place. As long as the multi doesn't have NAC in it it likely would be fine to add to it. Otherwise, when you ask later "Why isn't this xxxx working better?" I would point at NAC and folinic acid on the taking side and lack of mb12/adb12/Metafolin on the not taken side.

    However, you really are having some substantial benefits already so it comes down to trying to improve the performance you are having. You were clearly deficient and you could still have some of the 4 different possible b12 deficiencies going on as I would not expect Hycbl to be fully sufficient for any of the 4. So filling out the basics is a good place to start and you may noticve some difference. Pay attention to what changes. You are on your way so let's keep it going.
  20. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    anyone else getting huge detox? if so, what are you using & is it counter productive to mobilise so many toxins overwhelming the body's capacity to move them out? or should I just throw binders and chelators at it. or maybe CSM?

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