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Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Rockt, I didn't tolerate GABA at all. It gave me horrible weird dreams. Taking GABA is not the same as taking a benzo. I haven't read all of this thread, but where did you see that GABA is a useful way of getting off a benzo? I disagree.

    If I were in your situation (I am just saying what I would do) I'd go back to my original dose, without GABA, unless I'd been on GABA for months, and start the 1% titration. Think A YEAR out. Go as slow as you want. It's not THAT dangerous a drug. It has its upsides and downsides.

    If you want a natural benzo, make SUPER STRONG chamomile tea. It has apigenin, which functions like a plant benzo. By super strong, I mean, steep three or four teabags of organic chamomile tea in one cup of water that has just been brought to a boil, for at least five minutes. Now, it is not addictive, because it doesn't do what benzos do. They avoid the gating mechanism. They keep your receptors flooded and cut short your natural feedback system. Your body will just use the apigenin as it needs it. However, in my case, I had to be judicious about it as I'm extremely hormone sensitive, and apigenin also stimulates estrogen receptors, so if I did too much, I'd start to get PMS type symptoms.
     
  2. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Again, thanks Jenbooks. Great advice.

    I didn't hear that GABA is a useful way of getting off a benzo, I surmised. Dumb, I know. My thinking was that going from a whole pill to 3/4 was going to adversely effect my sleep so since I already had some Gaba I tried briefly about 8 months ago, I htought I'd toss it into the mix. As, I said, dumb. But I thought this clonazepam cessation wasn't going to be such a big deal - cut a quarter out every couple of weeks and done. Now I know it's not going to be that easy.
     
  3. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Oh, okay. Well, no it's not the same at all and I don't think it would help most people get off benzos.

    The one thing you will need is patience and persistence. At first, I was so disappointed I was so sensitive. I couldn't believe how little I had to take out. But you know, time passes and passes, and you're taking out a bit more and a bit more, and before you know it, six months later, you're really making progress, and a year out, you are either way down or off (depending on your sensitivity and initial dose). So you just have to keep at it slow and steady.
     
  4. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    While finding the right titration schedule for you, (including determining how much to reduce by, and how long to stay at that dose before reducing more) you could,
    as jenn suggested, use chamomile--the way I like to use it is to buy organic essential oil of chamomile (a little pricey but you only need a tiny bit so it lasts for ages) and apply a couple of drops to the bottom of your feet before bed and/or the pulse points on your neck. A nice bonus to this approach is then you are not waking up to pee due to drinking before bed :)

    I also like to alternate between tincture of Kava or Valerian/Hops to help keep me asleep. Theanine can also be useful for settling down. These things work great for me in combo with small doses of Klonopin.

    There is a book with a silly name "The Mood Cure" which may help you determine which neurotransmitter is right for you (i.e. GABA, 5HTP etc.)

    2 from me :D
    ~leela
     
  5. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Thanks for the info on chamomile.

    It never seemed potent enough to sedate me, but then I never tried it out that strong. 3-4 tea bags. wow! I will keep that in mind.

    Also never tried the kava... but I think I have some in a box somewhere, along with piles of all the other sleep supps.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I used Chamomile a lot during the years illness for nausea. I never tried stronger than 2 tea bags. I doubt that it fills the same receptors as benzos however. It doesn't relieve benzo withdrawal however it is used to quiet the "creepy" limb feelings with opioid withdrawal.
     
  7. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    I think the point here was less to fill the benzo receptors, but to fill the gap in sleep while tapering off them.
     
  8. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Leela, I used to use chamomile oil--such a beautiful blue.

    I'm not sure how much apigenin gets into the essential oil, though? I recall it mainly being azulene (sp)?

    Freddd, it would help ease insomnia as I was titrating down.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15464088

    http://tinyurl.com/6928ute

    "Apigenin (1 ?M) and EGCG (0.1 ?M) enhanced the modulatory action of diazepam (3 ?M) on the activation by GABA (5 ?M) of recombinant human ?1?2?2L GABAA receptors by up to 22% and 52%, respectively."
     
  9. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Great, great discussion re withdrawing from benzos -- thanks for all the input, and esp the liquid titration info JenBooks! :)

    BUT...this perhaps needs to be moved to one of the other benzo threads, as it's so far off the original topic of this thread -- Rich's revised protocol.

    Whaddya think? :)
     
  10. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Yes it should be its own thread. Can a mod move the appropriate posts and retitle it "Titrating off Benzos"?
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I was thinking the same thing
     
  12. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Me too. Sorry, I think I got most of this benzo discussion started. It came up and is really relavent, but yeah, let's get it to another thread.
     
  13. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Agree with the move. Let me sneak one last post regarding clonazepam nutrient depletion.

    Benzodiazepines. What to do before reducing a benzodiazepine. Valium, Klonopin withdrawal.
    ...prolonged use of a benzodiazepine will deplete biotin massively and lead to depression and the tingling or numbness.

    Biotin
    Extra biotin is also needed during long-term anticonvulsant treatment which depletes biotin.

    Biotin (vitamin H, vitamin B7)
    Long-term use of anti-seizure medications may also lead to biotin deficiency. Biotin deficiency results in fatigue, depression, nausea, muscle pains, hair loss, and anemia.

    Linus Pauling Institute
    Individuals on long-term anticonvulsant (anti-seizure) therapy reportedly have reduced blood levels of biotin as well as increased urinary excretion of organic acids that indicated decreased carboxylase activity.

    Interactions with Clonazepam
     
  14. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    starting this protocol

    I've just ordered the supplements! I'd like to add the supplements in gradually, so I can (hopefully) get a sense of which does what. You posted information about that, but I can't find it. My plan is to start with the multivitamin and lecithin, and add magnesium (transdermal), first. Is this a good idea, and what's a good order for the other supplements? I'm not taking anything at all at the moment.
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madietodd,

    Considering what we are finding out in the last two weeks I wonder if you really want to take a multivitamin with folic acid. If you have the problem with folic acid of many here, who are just finding out about it then it might prevent things from working out for you. What I would suggest is finding one of b-complexes without folic acid or cyanocbl, or get the Douglas Labs one with Metafolin and small amounts of oral mb12/adb12, plus vitamin a, d, E, c, calcium, magnesium and omega3 oils. These are fundamental basics that are needed to set the stage for any of the higher dose protocols. From there then you might asdd the mb12,adb12 sublinguals of 5 star brands, Metafolin in higher doses and other possibly critical cofactors and tuning to what holes are still obvious in your situation, personalizing your program. I really can't suggest simplified anything because the almost everybody becomes short of one or more basics as they systems start running. Potassium is very important in this as it often goes low when you body actually starts healing.
     
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madietodd,

    Considering what we are finding out in the last two weeks I wonder if you really want to take a multivitamin with folic acid. If you have the problem with folic acid of many here, who are just finding out about it then it might prevent things from working out for you. What I would suggest is finding one of b-complexes without folic acid or cyanocbl, or get the Douglas Labs one with Metafolin and small amounts of oral (only 1% absorption generally) mb12/adb12, plus additional vitamin a, d, E, c, calcium, magnesium and omega3 oils. These are fundamental basics that are needed to set the stage for any of the higher dose protocols. From there then you might add the mb12,adb12 sublinguals of 5 star brands, Metafolin in higher doses and other possibly critical cofactors and tuning to what holes are still obvious in your situation, personalizing your program. I really can't suggest simplified anything because the almost everybody becomes short of one or more basics as their systems start running. Potassium is very important in this as it often goes low when you body actually starts healing.
     
  17. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    So let's see. I should return the multivitamin when it arrives, and actually forget about taking a multivitamin. [But keep everything else from the protocol?] Order the Douglas Labs b-complex, and get the other vitamins and minerals (where do I find dosing information?) on your very helpful list. Then it's best to wait a bit (right?) and add in the other b12s, depending on my response to the original set of supplements.

    I seem to have jumped in at a good time! I'm reading as much as I can handle on the forums, but it's a lot to digest. I appreciate your simplifying it for me, here at the start of this adventure.

    Madeleine

    Just went online. The Douglas Labs metafolin/Bcomplex has no adb12 in it, so I'm a little confused. I also can't find a vitamin company called "5 Star". Maybe you meant make sure I buy from a good company?
     
  18. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Hi Madeleine.

    Freddd calls the B12's that have been most successful, "5 star" brands. They are, I think, Jarrow and Enzymatic Therapy Mb12 and Country Life Ab12, (though Country Life Ab12 has folic acid in it, so you might want to hold off on it, too. I think Freddd said that Country Life is coming out with a new Ab12 that doesn't have folic acid in it. But he says taking methylfolate, (Solgar Metafolin is the recommended brand), before and after folic acid helps with any deleterious effects, so I'm finishing my CL Ab12 and taking it with MF - haven't had any ill effects from this).

    Hope I'm not putting words in Freddd's mouth - he's the expert. Just trying to provide you with some answers until Freddd can respond.
     
  19. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Rockt and Freddd. I'm not going to order anything until I understand this a little better. Some of the problem is grammatical - eg, does "get the Douglas Labs one with Metafolin and small amounts of oral (only 1% absorption generally) mb12/adb12" mean the Douglas Labs formula has Metafolin AND mb12 AND adb12? And of course most of it is that I don't yet know what I'm talking about.

    Is the idea that your recommendations, Freddd, entirely supplant the March 30 protocol? Do I send back everything I ordered?

    Thank you, Rockt, for the brand information.
     
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madietodd,

    One change is one b-complex with mb12 and folic acid for one with mb12 and a small amount of Metafolin. It's only advantage is that it doesn't have folic acid. And it's missing things in the B-Right. You still need everything else as it was. The other change is a suggestion of Source Natural Dibencozide for a number of people to test it for effectiveness because the Country Life has folic acid. Some people do just fine with folic and/or folinic acid but some don't. The only way to know is to test it in yourself. We also have no idea of what percentage of people react to folic/folinic acid with paradoxical folate deficiency or to what extent. This is work in progress. It's been like debugging a computer program, finding where it crashes over and over and fix it so that it gets to the next place it crashes. That is how we keep learning what to look at when it isn't working. This time it is folic/folinic acid causing a deficiency even if Metafolin is taken too without some very careful planning. So it you use what you just ordered you will be doing part A of your own personal test with folic acid. Then when you use up the Dibencozide and B-complex, order one with Metafolin, and a number are turning up, and a Metafolion as well even with the folic acid to hopefully to make sure of what works for you. Do what you want but you don't have to jump instantly because there is no optimum answer on the folic acid, folinic acid methylfolate question. The odds are pretty good that you can use the folic acid reasonably well subject to certain natural limits. However, I think that odds favor Metafolin both for speed and probability of extensive healing. And if things take off very intensely you might not be able to tell until things slow down a lot how well you might do on various folates.
     

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