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Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Fredd

    I take the 1/4 of 0.5 mg quite often but just had 3 nights of taking nothing and no migraine at all so obviously there is no problem. Took 1/4 last night and no migraine but of course no AdnB12 for over a week. Its pretty certain that the migraines start 3 days after just 1/2 AdnB12 on its own and no MB12.

    Pam
  2. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Well, this is pretty relevant to me so I'll chime in:

    I have been taking clonazepam for about 5 years. I was up to .5 mg/night, (1 pill), for about 2-3 years, until about 2 weeks ago. I've been getting sleep apnea, (waking up gasping, so I know it's going on), and read that Benzos can cause sleep apnea. So I started cutting back to 3/4 of a pill. I added Gaba, (1500mg at bedtime), to ease the transition. Last night I went down to 1/2 a clonazepam and had a TERRIBLE sleep - trouble getting to sleep, not even remotely deep for the brief periods I did sleep and lots of apnea in morning period of attempted sleep.

    Any ideas how to get off clonazepam successfully and also, does the B12/metafolin supplementation help, (eventually?), with sleep? I know Freddd has commented that he now dreams, but I dream very vividly and sort of associate that with crappy sleep, since I feel like I was hit by a truck in the morning.

    Any input greatly appreciated.
  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    You have to go a LOT slower. You've reduced your dosage 50% in about 2 weeks, which is way too fast. It can take many, many months, even a year or two to taper off of a benzo. (I haven't heard of any benzo-apnea connection...where did you see this?)

    You might want to look into the Ashton protocol. She's the expert, lots of info available by doing a google search. She recommends switching to valium (gradually) and then very slowly tapering off of that.

    The gaba can have a paradoxical effect, so that might be causing a problem. Some folks can only tolerate 100-200 mgs.

    As for dreaming...I haven't been able to remember my dreams for a decade or so...unless I've taken some sort of supplement containing b vitamins, esp b6. However lately, I've remembered some dreams lately -- not in a lot of detail, but better than average, without any b supplements. So maybe some other detox factor (I'm taking taurine and SAMe) is helping.

    Just my two cents. :)

    d.

    p.s. I think 99% of us feel like we've been hit by a truck in the morning...doubt it has anything to do with dreaming or not dreaming. :)
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pam,

    Serum halflife of clonazepam is about 30-50 hours. That puts this phase of withdrawal response at around 6 days to 2-3 weeks. With a long halflife drug like this the reaction is so far away that it is hard to couple it to the cause without tracking every dose and headache for perhaps a year. 3 days without is not likely to trigger it if that is the cause. My response to diazepam withdrawal caused the headaches each 12-16 days, and then I took the diazepam to help get rid of the headache and started the next cycle. Later I discovered that I have a single dose re-accommodation situation.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    Go read the BenzoBusters site. They use the Ashton protocol. They typically start a person out at 2% a day and if that is too much go to 1% per day. One percent a day reduces the amount at 25% per month, but only less than the body can notice per day. Even sop about the two week mark many people have trouble at the 2% schedule.

    If you want to know how to do it without trouble it's not difficult, just tedious. As you are dependent on them for sleep it has to be done carefully. Generally the easiest way is a switch to valium, ie 10mg in your case, do a 2% taper to 5mg and a 1% from there to 0.1mg.

    However, just giving you those numbers isn't very useful. So here is a method that can be used with Clonazepam without having to go through the diazepam elixir A-B solutions of the Ashton protocol.

    I use a time variant taper method which is more effective as it breaks the conditioned response of time invariant dosing. However, the percentage drop each day is the same as the Ashton method and that is critical. This method will take prevent protracted withdrawal syndrome.

    So to start with take your 0.5mg dose and grind it up, dilute to 1 measured teaspoon with flour and sugar mixing thoroughly and put a measured 1/4 teaspoon in each of four capsules. Start out by taking 1 capsule each six hours. Because of the long halflife you will have some flexibility and any that would come during normal sleep hours, take at bedtime but not changing the "counting" time. So take the 6 am dose at midnight but the next would be at noon, like that. Six hours is 360 minutes. 1% is 3.6 minutes, 2 percent is 7.2 minutes. For starters increase the time between doses by 7 minutes each day. So the second day, Instead of the first dose being at noon it is 12:07. The second dose is 6:14, the 3rd dose is 12:21 and the forth dose is 6:28. Then move up to 15 minutes between doses so the first dose is about 12:45, 7:00pm, 1:15 and 7:30am. Keep doing that until the doses are 12 hours apart. Then make 8 capsules per tablet and start all over again at 6 hours between capsules. Each cycle halve the dose and double the number of doses and then lengthen the time. Any rate can be done that way. With opiods 5% is an easy daily decrease but way too much for benzos. With a short Halflife benzo the maximum time between doses is 12 hours but the method is the same. Vallium has the longest halflife and makes for the smoothest taper.

    This cycle repeats for about a year and then you move into a final phase of just keep stretching them out until there is 4 weeks between.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dan,

    p.s. I think 99% of us feel like we've been hit by a truck in the morning..

    About a decade ago I showed my doc my spreadsheet and daily log. I wrote a little program that would dissect my diary file and convert it to a data file of standard form I could load in the spreadsheet. I used abbreviations in it for all the pains and meds. On it were things like "ROBT-18", or "ROBT-6". That was there in one size or another every morning for 20 years. He asked what that meant. I explained Run Over By Truck - 18 wheeler. Fortunately that hasn't been my situation for about 6 years now.

    Benzos can affect dreaming by not allowing us to descend into deeper levels of sleep that wipe out memory of dreaming so they are vividly remembered. On the other hand I was unable to get into a dreaming stage of sleep without the Metafolin.
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    does the B12/metafolin supplementation help, (eventually?), with sleep?

    Yes, mb12 normalizes sleep and restores restfulness. There are multiple sleep disorders that are caused by mb12 deficiency. I'm not sure how adb12 fits in. It also generates melatonin in the evening when taken in the morning if you don't have a sleep phase problem of the type discussed in using SAD lights and their timing. The metafoilin was the other shoe dropping for me and restored normal phases of sleep.
  8. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Oh man. Thanks for this Freddd. I appreciate this, but... complex. Maybe after I digest it awhile. Remember, I'm running on very little sleep and possibly having withdrawl and basically feeling like crap. Does it really take this much effort to go off clonazepam? The things doctors do to us. And the things we let them do 'cause they know best.
  9. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks Danny.

    "I haven't heard of any benzo-apnea connection...where did you see this?"

    Sorry, don't have the energy to re-look it up right now, but I read that it can cause the throat to relax too much, (I think - I'm pretty brain dead right now).

    Have to re-think how I go off this "more potent than I thought drug".
  10. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    I titrated down from 30 mg of temazepam I was on for 2 years (and starting to get tolerance withdrawal symptoms) to around the 8 or 9 I"m at now for the last two years. It took me quite a while to titrate because I had NO IDEA I was so addicted. I still think the drug saved my life, as our building at the time was undergoing demolition/renovation by a developer, 150 of 268 apartments were gutted completely (floors, walls, you name it), the lobby was basically torn down and rebuilt, the basement walls were jackhammered out for picture windows and a glass atrium (burning out five jackhammers a day sometimes). The amount of noise, and floods, leaks, workers, dust, was so horrifying and I was on the second floor in back, they'd start at 6:30 am under my windows and it would go on for twelve hours a day sometimes. The benzo put me to sleep at 10:30 so I could get 8 hours of sleep, and besides, it calmed my shattered nervous system.

    Even so, I don't think they're necessarily good drugs--they are really addictive, and over a certain level, can be toxic, I think. At the level I'm at now I tolerate it really well, but stopped titrating when we moved and began to travel and our lives became uncertain. If I can settle down, I'll continue to titrate but may choose to stay on very low doses such as maybe 4 mg a night as I think its good for my physiology and genetics, but that's a personal choice.

    Temazepam is said to be half as strong as valium. I'm not sure how they figure that out. It's fairly short acting compared to valium. I think klonipin is said to be 10 times as strong as valium. Anyway.

    I felt my body had become accustomed to temazepam and my intuitive feeling was I did not need to switch to a different drug. They all have somewhat different molecular shapes that your receptors adapt to. In addition I personally did NOT want valium which has a really long half life. So I just stuck with what I was taking and titrated using it.

    The reason I titrated at all was when I went from 30 mg to 27 mg, thinking that 10% was nothing, I was thrown into serious withdrawal and had insomnia for THREE months as a reaction...even when I went back up to 30. I then realized my particular vulnerability to this drug and began water titration.

    Water titration can get ANYBODY off of a benzo but it requires patience and listening to your body. All you need is a glass or plastic cylinder (they recommend 250 but i use 100), a syringe without needle (in the beginning I was only taking out a few millileters, so I used a small syringe. Later I was taking out so much, I used a bigger 35 or 60 ml syringe). You need a small battery operated portable blender. And I use the same two toddler cups one red one blue. The red is for "refuse" ie the waste water and the blue is what I'll drink later that night.

    My pill is a capsule/powder. If your pill is not you also need a mortar and pestle to grind the pill into powder.

    You put it into the 100 (in my case) ml of water you had measured in your cylinder, which you had then poured into the blender. You blend for about a minute. It does not dissolve into the water but instead remains in suspension for about a good 30 seconds. So that's all the time you have. You then pour it into your cup and then put the syringe in and siphon out how much you are going to throw away and then drink the rest. In the beginning, I just threw away a few milliliters. I could go down therefore a fraction of a dose. I found my body tolerated going down about 0.3 milligrams, that would be 1%. I'd stay at that dose for a week then do the next. It was fairly smooth sailing with a few bumps in the road as at some points, you have reached a plateau where your brain actually has to adjust to the new lower dose you're at, and you will feel it, but if you stay at that for a few weeks until you stabilize and have no symptoms of withdrawal, you can then continue titrating down.

    It's a really great approach, just be patient. A
  11. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Freddd, sorry I couldn't find a specific site, BensoBusters. Do you have a link?

    Thanks.
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    I went through it too. During the decades of severe b12/folate deficiency I had out of control spasms all over the place all the time. I started with Valium and after some years I tried Dilantin (Tegretol was another choice, and I had tried several others too, now they use Neurontin and Lyrica for the pain and spasms of FMS) and Valium and then was able to start tapering the valium. This was about 92. I was familiar with the 10% taper for opioids developed in the 60s but that was way too fast for Valium and I finally arrived at 1%, same as Ashton. I also found the VA barbiturate taper of the 40s and 50s at 1%. I wrote a program to generate times. It can be done in a spreadsheet as well. I had been a psych major and noticed the conditioned response the body develops over taking things at the same time. This tapering method works great with Oxycontin or other time release opioids as it breaks the conditioned response of same time dosing. A person can go down all the way without any withdrawal discomfort at any time if done on schedule. Without the withdrawal discomfort a person doesn't develop the fear and anxiety about withdrawal so it goes a whole lot easier.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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  14. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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  15. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi JB

    I'm really surprised that you can tolerate these kind of drugs... They are SO toxic.

    I hadn't taken any pharma drugs since 1975, and then last November, after another hellish round of insomnia (caused by a toxic tooth filling), I finally gave in and tried some trazedone and then some lorazapam. DOUBLE YUKKO! :Retro tongue::Retro tongue::Retro tongue::eek:

    Neither of them really helped me get the DEEP sleep I wanted, just a sort of trance like shallow sleep, followed by 2 days of feeling toxic all over, and biochemically brain-fucked. Really awful. If I need sleep, I will stick to tryptophan, magnesium and medical marijuana.
  16. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    It just shows you how different we all are. And truly, we are. Our genes, our microbial commensals, they are different. What one person can metabolize, another can't. I can't tolerate tryptophan, it makes me sick, and 5HTP makes my bladder burn like crazy.

    I never tried medical marijuana--

    Anxiety disorders run in my family, and I mean serious ones, even disabling. Smaller amounts of benzos seem to not only calm my entire system, but help my immune system. Who knows why. But larger amounts were definitely toxic.
  17. floydguy

    floydguy Senior Member

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    Yes, it's always worth repeating. I can pretty much take any medication in any dosage - though I generally refuse to take anything at this point and am only taking LDN and Immunovir. But for whatever reason any dosage of sleep medication makes me feel like I went on a bender the night before. I feel worse than if I had guzzled a bottle of Jack in 5 minutes and then went to bed. Benzos are the other thing that have the opposite effect on me - I get really agitated which is strange because that's not a symptom for me and not something that I experience at all unless I take a benzo. Really strange.
  18. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    This is my experience too, anxiety/depressive disorders run in my family with both my parents affected. I have tried to learn from this and have never needed an antidepressant but I have suffered with horrendous anxiety in the past. Eventually I found out that for me this was linked to too low cortisol and high DHEA. Since taking a physiological dose of steroids which give me the cortisol my body wasn't able to produce I don't suffer with anxiety anymore except the odd night when I have done too much and used up all the cortisol.

    However since addressing methylation and adding the extra 1/2 Metafolin, Carnitine Fumerate and 1/2 B right plus a small amount of MB12 I haven't had any anxiety at night either. Its wonderful.

    Pam
  19. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    From this site:

    http://www.prozactruth.com/clonazepam.htm


    "Many people attempt to taper off Klonopin by switching to Valium.

    It is not recommended. You will go into withdrawal on the Klonopin

    and introduce a new medication on top of that which will probably

    have side effects of it's own."

    Still looking into this.

    Freddd, I've had such a good response physically to the low carb diet that I don't like the sound of mixing flour and sugar into capsules with clonazepam, even in samll amounts. There's got to be another way. Can you forego the flour and sugar?

    Thanks for the links Freddd and Jenbooks. I'll need them. This is kinda stressing me.
  20. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Also, do you think its possible that a person taking clonazepam would experience withdrawal throughout the day, after their nightly dose starts to wear off? If so, there are many symptoms that might eventually be resolved with successful cessation.

    Anyone experienced relief of some symptoms following cessation?

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