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Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    Hi Rich

    I am considering trying your protocol. Could you tell me how long it usually takes before seeing some results. I realize every one is different but just a general idea.

    Oh and not to pit you and freddd against each other but which would you recommend I start first. I'm sure these questions have been asked before but I'm not up to searching the threads.
    thanks so much for your time and help
    Lee Ann
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Something that I noticed early on with mb12 was that people, myself included, who took cyanocbl or hydroxycbl along with folic acid or folinic acid had MUCH more intense reactions to mb12 than those who had never taken any of those items or combinations of inactive b12 and inactive folate. That is not an explanation, just an observation. There are probably lots of explanations, and Rich for instance would likely get into the biochemistry and this pathway and that pathway with some gene polymorphisms thrown in. And he may actually be technically correct in some or all of it, much more so at that level of explanation than I am because I know very little about all that.

    On the other hand I work with data, with results, group data typically. A million person database makes be drool (figuratively speaking). Data doesn't tell you "why" at the biochemical level, just that something is happening and even with some statistics how likely it is to happen and even how likely the statistics are to be correct. Then there is also pattern matching. When drugs are tested for instance and only 25% are affected, that is near "placebo" level and thrown out. On the other hand I would go look for the patterns of who was affected and might realize that only those taking, for example, folic acid, are so affected by following the patterns. In medical claims, there are ways to catch fraud in the data that get by all the statistical methods. In a long term study, "longitudinal" because it follows a few people a cross a longer period, one looks for repeating patterns over time. The theory of using lots of people for a few months is that you catch the whole spectrum in cross-section. That isn't always true and even if it does catch everything, the significance may not be realized.

    As an example, in myself I have noticed a certain set of symptoms appears and worsens each time I do certain things. The induced severe folate deficiency of the "glutathione detox reaction" gave me the pattern of symptoms that occurs over and over with folic/folinic acid and not too surprisingly gets labeled "folate detox reaction" or something of the sort. However labeling it that way, while recognizing the pattern also misleads as to what will fix it. In recognizing patterns ie "glutathione detox", "NAC detox" and "folic/folinic acid detox" it is important to see that there is another pattern that they all match, "methylfolate deficiency" with "mb12 deficiency" and "adb12 deficiency" mixed in as the period it lasts gets longer. While there may be 50 or 100 symptoms all told which complicates the matter, the bulk of people experience at first about half a dozen core symptoms with some others which serve to obscure the matter by their variety.

    What nobody at the moment knows is what percentage of those here have such a reaction to glutathione, NAC, folic acid or folinic acid. Rich found an underlying biochemical pathway that could actually connect all of them which might predict that many of the folks who experience it with one of these items might be inclined to experience it with more of them.

    Judging from the relatively large numbers of people experiencing this pattern of symptoms with folic acid or folinic acid, even small amounts, we have a basis for finding what is blocking all these people from healing and causing uncomfortable and even dangerous symptoms, at least until after they go folic/folinic acid free and switch to any brand of Metafolin which could cause significant startup response in this situation as the worse the deficiency the bigger the startup response. However, unlike the deficiency, the actual Methylfolate startup responses tend to fade pretty quickly unlike the induced deficiency that often just gets worse and worse over time; again another part of the pattern. I know this requires that people change their working hypothesis which causes cognitive dissonance and that too is uncomfortable. Try to consider the patterns themselves, not the labels pinned on those patterns which may be misleading. Somebody on the local "sex offenders" registry for skinny dipping in a mountain hot springs is not the same as a homicidal pedophile despite both being "registered sex offenders".
  3. kurt

    kurt Senior Member

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    That depends on how you compare costs. I cut the hB12 tablets in quarters and take one quarter daily (1250mcg), so that one bottle is a 120 day supply, less than $8 per month. But that only works for me because I am taking multiple forms. I suppose if someone was trying to take a lot of hB12, that might be expensive. Fortunately the mB12, which is the bulk of the multi-B12 protocol I follow, is less expensive.
  4. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Pricey compared to 60 5mg tabs of Jarrow mb12 for $16. That's what I was comparing it to ........ in my mind. I thought about trying the liquid forms from Holistic Heal. Which way to go... liquid vs. sublingual tabs, hydroxy vs. methyl vs. adb12, or all together ?Sooo many choices, which is best for me ? That is the million dollar question. I wish this were easier. :headache:
  5. garcia

    garcia Aristocrat Extraordinaire

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    Not in my case Freddd or of the people I know. In our case the methylfolate reactions keep on getting worse and worse. I wouldn't call them "startup" reactions since they persist indefinitely.
  6. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Wow, I'm kind of surprised at how little of these supplements you are using and how good your response is. I know more doesn't necessarily mean better, but I'm still conditioned to think this way a bit. Plus, I haven't had any reaction to Mb12, (I've taken as much as 30,000mcg, 6tablets, in one day), and only a slightly odd feeling from taking a whole metafoiln (800mcg). Perhaps I'll scale things back a bit and see what happens.

    Thanks for your input Kurt.
  7. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks Drex.

    Is anyone else having problems with pain of the gums/teeth from holding the sublinguals in there for 2 hours? Mine are really painful and have become really sensitive to cold in a little over a week of trying this.

    So I'm thinkinng if I add the hydroxy, it's going to be the liquid drops.
  8. toddm1960

    toddm1960 Senior Member

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    I had many of the same questions, which to try, how much to start with. I decided to stick with Rich's simplified treatment list exactly and see how it goes. I will say the drops are not easy to know how many are droping under your tongue.......lol.....but I'll get better I guess. Day one for me, so far so good.

    I had one question about adverse effects, what exactly are some having?
  9. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Kurt---Maybe I am an overmethylator, or maybe my nervous system is just too sensitive to handle the heavy metal dumps that are triggered by the methyl B12. Or maybe methyl B12 is just not the right B12 for me at this time.

    Taking binders has not helped. Neither has the magnesium (glycinate in my case), nor the B6 (both regular and P5P), nor the Ester C, all of which I have been taking for years.

    I really do get the sense that I should go with the hydroxo for now, and maybe eventually I can try a baby dose... like maybe 10 mcg of the methyl again.

    I am glad to hear how well your protocol has worked for you, and hope to figure out one for myself in time.
  10. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I found this back on the old methylation thread (now rather dead)... and moved it over here.

    Hi Rich. Thanks for your response.

    Because there has been an ongoing debate about WHICH BRAND of B COMPLEX to take.... and because I have no interest in thinking too much about that... could you just tell me which one (in your opinion) is the better, if not the best, choice? I DO NOT tolerate methyl B12, and don't want a B Complex with that in it--like the B Right.

    I also take cyanocobalamin B12, as I have always tolerated that one, so for now it is my choice. I will consider doing the hydroxo (Perque), next in line, when I feel a bit more stable energy wise. Detoxing which weak has always been a huge mistake, and fortunately I have now learned my lesson with that.


    As for your other suggestions:
    I already take P5P and have no problems with it at all.
    Magnesium has been moderately helpful.
    Theanine has been almost completely ineffective, unless I take 500 mg at a time, which is just too expensive.
    GABA gives me a paradoxical reaction--makes me very anxious. Initially it seemd to help, and then it went in reverse.
    Progesterone cream also used to help, but now it is not doing the trick anymore.
    Valerian makes me even more hyper and causes me to hallucinate giant pulsing aqua colored spots....

    The lemon water is a great simple idea, which I used to do, and keep forgetting... so thanks for the reminder! As is also the activated charcoal.

    I do think that I have issues with an overloaded liver, so NAC is helpful too. I take between 500-1500 mg per day. If I don't take it, I notice the difference.

    My diet is all organic, mostly vegetables and animal proteins, with some fruits and nuts, and is very free of the toxins you mention. So for now I'm content with it.

    Thanks again for your input ~~DB
  11. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    I know many have been helped by the methylation protocol. For a long while I was interested in this but my instincts said not to do it. How do each of us *really* know what we need without extensive testing that does not really exist. How do we understand our pathways? Dr. Yasko's program tries to fine tune it and is quite complex and expensive (for the autistic children). How do we know what we are unbalancing? Straight folic acid has been linked to cancers in human and animal studies. How do we know that by stimulating methylation we are actually helping ourselves? I had all these questions, plus I am so MCS that most fillers bother me, and I know from friends in the industry that most supplements go through a process that leaves residues in them that may disagree with me.

    Instead, I think it's best to eat fabulously and try to stay away from toxic exposures of mold and chemicals that are pervasive in our environment. I just started making green smoothies. With a vitamix. After meeting someone quite inspirational who convinced me. I have to say that green smoothie was so much more potent than a green juice (it did have a small amount of banana and strawberry to taste...) and felt so ALIVE. Your body knows when it's getting good nutrition, as opposed to dead crap food.

    It's not always easy to eat fabulously by the way. It's almost impossible to get good chicken without a really good source of pastured weston-price style farming. Organic chicken is really not very healthy at all, is fed poor quality organic grain, is usually cooped up in pens, and often has retained water (sodium phosphate) rather than being air chilled. It tastes completely different. Truly pastured chicken, eggs, wild game, fresh organic produce, green smoothies, etc. Flooding the body with nutrition, sort of an adaptation of Gerson. Food is taken in by the body wisely, and it knows what to make from it.

    I recently read a book, Surviving Off-Off Grid. It was a fascinating treatise, part historical, and I learned where catsup comes from (boiling and reducing tomatoes, adding mace and other spices, sifting out the skins, and then canning in glass jars to preserve over the winter. Certainly a lot more nutritious than today's catsup) and many other condiments and foods. I started making beet kvass (just peel and cut up chunks of two beets, put in filtered water in a glass jar, add a tablespoon of salt unless you have whey, put the lid on, keep it out at room temperature or even outside if warm weather for a few days until it ferments to taste. Salt has traditionally been used for pickling, sauerkraut, kvass etc, as it inhibits all but the healthy flora that begin to digest the beet sugars.) It is terrific for the liver/gallbladder, and digestion.

    In this book that I read, he points out that real tomatoes grown in your own good soil don't look huge plump and red, but their nutritive content is ten times more. This is true of most homegrown veggies in good soil. They won't be as pretty, but you won't eat as much because you are getting good nutrition.

    He points out that all municipal water is poisoned.

    These things are true. We all ignore this, we are numb to the assault of poor food and huge amounts of chemicals on our systems, and wonder why like the bees we have colony collapse disorder, and start taking supplements.

    I do get IV glutathione and IV meyer's cocktail, these really are necessary for me especially the glutathione. Getting it IV seems to be far more pure than any supplements that can have fillers and bother me and create symptoms.

    Just my 1.5 cents I know I am probably different than most.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  12. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Jenbooks--

    I agree with you about the food. REALLY important to get the high quality organic everything. I am lucky that I live in a community where this is more readily available. But still, I am not perfect with it, as I sometimes do buy organic store bought turkey and chicken when I can't get my hands on the better choices.

    I also think, in my case, that certain supp's have been beneficial. At this point, I try to be selective with them, and to pay attention to whether they are really helping me. When they aren't, my body lets me know loud and clear. I think that's why I am so much more cautious with methylation. I personally do not believe in the "healing crisis," because in my experience, when I am having a crisis I am NOT having a healing. If I have a hard time with something (like the methyl B12) more than three times, then I will be pretty reluctant to try it again, and if I do ever take it, it will be a long time coming. really longggggggg.

    I want to add my two cents also about the importance of fresh air... which is definitely hard to come by these days... but which makes a big difference in my life. When I can get out to the ocean (lucky me!), I feel that that often does me as much, or even more, good than many of the treatments and supp's I've tried. Weather permitting, that's where I am going to be every day that I can.

    PS Enjoy the kvass! It sound so yummy, I might just try to make some. I am a BIG FAN of the beet.

    [​IMG]
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Garcia,

    You know, I've seen a lot of things along the way. One of the things I have seen is that the genuine startup responses duration is often dose related, the smaller the dose the longer the startup. This is very clear with mb12. A very slow titration will keep the sensed change going for months and months. Large doses end the startup relatively quickly. Mb12 taken without adb12 for some people (percentage not known but possibly a majority) will keep startup going indefinitely as the adb12 for the mitochondria never fill up at the natural conversion rate but get just enough to keep tickling it. Methylfolate without mb12/adb12, augmented by low doses, can keep startup going almost indefinitely. L-carnitine fumarate demonstrated this to me quite thoroughly. At 125mg the startup went on for months. I was getting quite "sick" of it. I increased to 250mg, no change. I increased to 500mg, and it faded a bit. After 6 months of startup in all I increased to 1000mg and it was done in 3 days.

    Without knowing a whole lot more I can't say what is causing your reaction and even with more information experimentation would be needed to be sure.

    One thing that definitely makes startup worse is stop and start. It increases the severity of the oscillations. Many people have demonstrated that and then changed what they were doing and had different results. Our neurological systems notice "change". Change can be kept doing indefinitely by certain practices. In regards to folate, I have had all sorts of symptoms increasing and worsening while taking Metafolin because of glutathione, folic acid and folinic acid depending upon relative timing and/or dosage. With the glutathione, 800 or 1600mcg of Metafolin didn't change anything as I also had folic acid, which might have been prolonging it. Thinks certainlykept getting worse for 6 months despite the Metafolin. 4800mcg put a stop to the glutathione induced folate deficiency starting within hours. Then, and only then, I had mb12 startup and adb12 startup all over again.

    There are all sorts of unintended consequences that if not understood can be misinterpreted over and over and depending upon the changes a person makes in response, the changes can make it worse.

    So what the answers are, I don't know. However, with detailed info I have been able to help hundreds of people work their way through the maze, always in contradiction to their original opinions and explanations. I do know that ambiguous descriptions and wordings with lots of different meanings in common usage don't solve the problem. Also, one can wrestle with hundreds of effects indefinitely that keep shifting and never resolving if more fundamental root causes are not dealt with. Taking things apart semantically is a starting point to try to find out what the person is actually trying to say.
  14. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Yes. My teeth were killing me when I would put the tab in my upper lip. I cut back to a smaller dose and moved it to my lower gum on the side, like putting in a chew (if you've ever done skoal). That took the pain away. Also I was not taking metafolin then either, so don't know if this had anything to do with it.
  15. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    Hi Garcia

    I did a Google search on Sorbitol and came up with quite a few hits regarding Sorbitol and headaches so I am not sure about that. In the meantime I am leaving off the Adnb12 and am trying Natural Factors MB12 at a dose of 2500 mcg sublingual. It doesn't contain any sweetner just some lactose which I am fine will. Only started it today and had a good day so will see what happens.

    Pam
  16. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    ...I am glad that you are feeling better and thank you for the time you have taken to answer my questions, I appreciate it. Naturally I am also grateful to Rich for all the time he puts into looking into all our problems. I have typed my response above starting with ...

    Pam
  17. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    DB: It is so easy to make. I just cut into quarters or eights--chunks. I bought a glass jar with glass lid at walmart (I don't want a metal lid--could leach into the liquid). It turns into beet juice but fermented so not too sweet. I'd like to use whey but have no good source at the moment. Salt does just fine. It lasts a while. I was having serious gallbladder issues--pain and nausea after fatty meals and it seems to have banished that, just by drinking a little daily. Amazing. And that's another reason I'm saying foods over supplements generally (though as I said I do IV stuff that is a necessity for function). I could've taken pills for the gallbladder with a zillion herbs...

    I want to make another green smoothie asap. It really is worth it. I'm just a little concerned over sourcing organic, which sometimes is hard for me.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Pam,

    I don't take benzos apart from the odd 1/4 of a 0.5 mg clonazapan at night

    That is more than you think.

    so its definitely not connected to that.


    I wouldn't bet on that.

    Valium withdrawal equivalence is 1.25-2.5mg (10x-20x). Clonazepam is a long halflife benzo that is arguably the most difficult to withdraw from. Many people have to switch from it to something else to get off of it, especially the last little bit. When tapering I take them down to 0.01mg of valium, 0.001 clonazepam at 1% per day. Faster than 1% per day can cause a lot of problems. Clonazepam is notorious for protracted withdrawal syndrome. A single such dose a week or even each two weeks could cause enough accomodation to cause withdrawal effects including spasms and headaches and another 30 or so symptoms.

    How often do you take it?
  19. drex13

    drex13 Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    How about coming off Xanax ? I take 1/2 of a .5 mg when I need it. Not every day, but when I need it. It does seem to make me feel better when I feel worse than normal, which makes me wonder if I am actually going through withdrawal on those bad days.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Drex,

    Xanax is quite different from longer halflife benzos. It is a short and intense benzo. Taken no more often than every few days it probably won't build up much accommodation, individual results will vary considerably. However, if you chart your symptoms by time and find you have similar symptoms occur approximately between 24 and 72 hours of your last dose or other regular repeating interval, over and over, that may be withdrawal signs. If this is the case, at these very low levels, try taking half of the usual dose, and then a quarter as sort of a mini-taper which will usually put an end to the symptoms and less likely to reestablish the accommodation than the usual dose.

    These low level withdrawal symptoms are very common and often not recognized.

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