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Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. LisaGoddard

    LisaGoddard Senior Member

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    Hi rich,
    Thanks. Will try these suppliers. i realised that I did try b12 injections which didn't help - they were hydroxyb12 so perhaps I should try the methyl form. What do you think?
    Thanks,
    Lisa
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Lisa.

    If you tried hydroxo B12 injections together with oral methylfolate and didn't get a response, then you could switch to methyl B12. You might also check to see if you have deficiencies in other vitamins or in the minerals. Deficiencies in some of them can block the methylation cycle. Another possibility is low methionine, because that is needed to feed the methylation cycle, and many PWMEs are low in it, due to draining of the sulfur metabolism. High toxic metals, such as mercury, can also block the methylation cycle. If you don't get a response with methyl B12, these would be things to look into. If you do use methyl B12, I would suggest limiting the dosage to 2000 micrograms per injection. The reason is that too much methyl B12 together with oral methylfolate can overdrive the methylation cycle and prevent glutathione from coming up.

    I hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  3. LisaGoddard

    LisaGoddard Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,
    Thanks very much for your advice. I'm trying the oral methylb12 not injections. I've ordered some methionine as well. I found MSM helped which may be related to sulphur metabolism? I'm excited about starting the treatment although i know some people herx early on.
    Thanks again,
    Lisa



    Hi Rich
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Lisa.

    I don't kinow if you meant oral methylB12 or sublingual methyl B12. Swallowing it does not produce much absorption. Sublingual is much more effective. Maybe that's what you meant.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  5. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    Hello everyone,im very keen on starting Rich´s SMP,i do have some questions,maybe you guys can help me out.

    General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula: do the values they say in the website,for example Vitamin A (as palmitate) 5,000 iu ,are for 6 tablets a day?
    Why doesnt it have copper and iron?

    Hydroxy B12 Mega Drops: did some math,2 drops a day,one bottle should last 174 days,can some confirm that?

    are oral drops as effective as subcutaneous injections? i take 1000mcg cyanocobalamin subcutaneously and it does wonders for me.

    MethylMate B : 3 drops a day,one bottle should last 142 days,can someone confirm this?

    On another note,for people outside the USA,i´ve read in an european autism forum that holistic heal people take one digit off the value of the order in the receipt.
    For example if you do a 220 dollars order,they´ll put in the receipt the value is 22 dollars,so you don´t have problems with customs.(usually you only pay customs if the value is above 25 euros,at least in Spain),so if your order is below 220 dollars,its fine.
    I read someone said they sell it the UK,in healthreaction.com,but with the dollar being lower than the euro,and the shipping costs being just 11.85 dollars,isnt it better buying from the USA?

    thanks
  6. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    ***Hi, Pegasus.

    Hello everyone,im very keen on starting Rich´s SMP,i do have some questions,maybe you guys can help me out.

    ***I'll answer them to the degree I can.

    General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula: do the values they say in the website,for example Vitamin A (as palmitate) 5,000 iu ,are for 6 tablets a day?

    ***Yes.

    Why doesnt it have copper and iron?

    ***It was formulated by Dr. Amy Yasko. She was concerned that excess copper and iron could increase oxidative stress via what is called the Fenton reaction. In this reaction, free iron or copper ions react with hydrogen peroxide to produce hydroxyl free radicals, which are very reactive. Of course, it's also true that both copper and iron are essential minerals for the human body, and some people are deficient in them. As I'm sure you know, iron is particularly important for women of reproductive age. Dr. Yasko favors periodic testing to see what the deficiencies are, and supplementing the nutrients that are deficient. With the simplified treatment protocol, many people do not do this testing, and I have not told people that they need to do so, so they could be deficient in these minerals and not be aware of it. This is a problem. It's part of the compromise involved in trying to keep this treatment simple and inexpensive. This is one of the reasons I am considering switching to another multi, such as the Thorne Basic Nutrients. They supply versions with and without these minerals. I am also concerned that the Neuro Health formula has pretty small amounts of some of the essential nutrients, and that it contains folic acid and cyanocobalamin, which I don't believe are the best forms of folate and B12, repectively. On the other hand, it contains some supplements that are helpful in restoring the methylation cycle and related pathways that other multis do not have. A few people are trying alternative multis and are reporting their results. I'm waiting for more input before deciding about this. I will note, though, that we used the Neuro Health formula in our clinical study, and two-thirds of the people reported significant benefit.

    Hydroxy B12 Mega Drops: did some math,2 drops a day,one bottle should last 174 days,can some confirm that?

    ***Some people have reported that their bottles have not lasted as long as one would calculate. The drops don't seem to be precise in size.

    are oral drops as effective as subcutaneous injections? i take 1000mcg cyanocobalamin subcutaneously and it does wonders for me.

    ***If you are able to do it subcutaneously, I would encourage you to continue that. Again, the oral drops are suggested in order to make the protocol simple, inexpensive and easy to use. Three people have reported that the drops under the tongue do not give them as large a response as the sublingual Perque HydroxoB12 Guard lozenges I specified in earlier versions of the protocol, so I am considering switching back to them. But subQ injections are better yet, if you are able to do them. Some people are not able to get prescriptions easily, and some do not like needles!:)

    MethylMate B : 3 drops a day,one bottle should last 142 days,can someone confirm this?

    ***Again, the bottle may not last as long as calculated, because the drops may be bigger than anticipated.

    On another note,for people outside the USA,i´ve read in an european autism forum that holistic heal people take one digit off the value of the order in the receipt.
    For example if you do a 220 dollars order,they´ll put in the receipt the value is 22 dollars,so you don´t have problems with customs.(usually you only pay customs if the value is above 25 euros,at least in Spain),so if your order is below 220 dollars,its fine.
    I read someone said they sell it the UK,in healthreaction.com,but with the dollar being lower than the euro,and the shipping costs being just 11.85 dollars,isnt it better buying from the USA?

    ***I don't know about these issues.

    ***Best regards,

    ***Rich
  7. newradost

    newradost

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    Hi Pegasus, I can confirm that Yasko people do "take one digit off the value of the order in the receipt." I've printed my own calculated paper order as for the customs and when they opened the package inside were the same calculations.
  8. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    Hi Rich,i have some questions about the protocol,im reluctant to stop my cyanocobalamin injections,so i was wondering if i could continue with those and add the remaining hydroxocobalamin.
    i take cyanocobalamin every 2 days,so it would look like this

    Day 1 : 2000mcg Hydroxocobalin
    Day 2: 1000mcg Cyanocobolamin + 1000mcg Hydroxocobalamin
    and so on.

    Is there a problem in mixing 2 types of b12? will they compete with each other for absorption?
    Also,do people detox with the multimineral because vitamins\minerals or the extra stuff yasko puts there for methylation?
    i take this multivitamin\mineral - http://ast-ss.com/store/multipro-32x-200 and it has as much vitamins and minerals in 1 tablet as yasko´s has in 6 and i dont have problems with it.

    Lastly,are those RNA things really worth it? im thinking of trying the one for inflammation,see if i get any relief from my pain,but theyre so expensive!!

    thanks
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    ***Hi, Pegasus.

    i have some questions about the protocol,im reluctant to stop my cyanocobalamin injections,so i was wondering if i could continue with those and add the remaining hydroxocobalamin.
    i take cyanocobalamin every 2 days,so it would look like this

    Day 1 : 2000mcg Hydroxocobalin
    Day 2: 1000mcg Cyanocobolamin + 1000mcg Hydroxocobalamin
    and so on.

    Is there a problem in mixing 2 types of b12? will they compete with each other for absorption?

    ***You could do that, but if you do, I think that some of the hydroxocobalamin will be used to detox the cyanide from the cyanocobalamin. The standard treatment nowadays for cyanide poisoning is a big dose of hydroxocobalamin.

    Also,do people detox with the multimineral because vitamins\minerals or the extra stuff yasko puts there for methylation?

    ***I don't know. I wish I did. It's hard to be sure whether the people experience the effects of detox, or whether it is an initial drop in glutathione, such as from TMG promoting the BHMT reaction, which converts homocysteine to methionine. It may be the TMG that is causing this response.

    i take this multivitamin\mineral - http://ast-ss.com/store/multipro-32x-200 and it has as much vitamins and minerals in 1 tablet as yasko´s has in 6 and i dont have problems with it.

    ***I think it's worth staying with that one to see how it goes.

    Lastly,are those RNA things really worth it? im thinking of trying the one for inflammation,see if i get any relief from my pain,but theyre so expensive!!

    ***I've heard from people that the RNA formulations have helped them. Amy Yasko says that they are the most powerful treatments in her protocol, but that she has to be careful about pushing them, because of concern that the FDA will put the kybosh on them by classifying them as drugs (even though they are natural substances), and require expensive testing, which would not be affordable. As you may know, if anyone claims that a natural substance is a treatment for a disease, the FDA will come down on them. There continue to be lawsuits about this, but so far, the FDA, backed up by the drug companies, has been able to continue to do this, regardless of the scientific evidence that these things work.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  10. LisaGoddard

    LisaGoddard Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,
    I have been taking the sublingual form of methylB12. I noticed an intensification of my symptoms particularly those I rightly or wrongly associate with inflammation, the sick flu-like feeling and pain in my legs esp knees which are characteristic of my ME. I think this is a good sign of detoxing? The symptoms were so bad, however, that I reduced to taking the treatment every other day. Hope that's okay? I have just recently begun to feel my body getting stronger which I have not experienced before. No change in brain fog ...yet.

    I noticed that you mentioned someone with Sjoren's Syndrome who experienced joint pain on the protocol. Did she continue with the treatment? I don't know that I have an autoimmune component to my ME but have two skin autoimmune conditions and family history of more serious autoimmune diseases.

    Lastly, whether the protocol works for me or not, I wanted to say how much I appreciate your research interest and personal committment to people with ME/CFS. You are one of the heroes.
    Blessings,
    Lisa
  11. dmac

    dmac

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    Hi rich,

    How does this methylation pathway panel (MPP) test compare with Amy yasko methyaltion test?
    Is it as through?

    Will the MPP tell me exactly where the cycle is damaged and I what am lacking?

    Will the MPP test tell me which B12 is best for me? hydro, methyl, adben, so I can follow the proper protocol?

    I am on medicare, do not have a lot of $$$$



    I have a lot of infections...
    lyme
    mycoplasma
    ebv
    cmv
    hhv6
    sojgerns
    hashimoto
    high rt3
    low free t3
    low progesterone
    low pregnolone
    low estrogen
    6 out of 8 minerals def in RBC
    ion channel disfuction, calcium, potassium, sodium
    yeast and mold fungus
    mold exposure for 2 yrs in house
    high mercury (not sure of other metals but probably high in some/many as well)
    allergic to everything, MCS, foods on 3 day rotation diet
    very malnourished, hair falling out, nail rigid
    had to have some teeth extracted and do 8 cavitation s due to abscesses

    just a mess and God so sick

    tried CSM from dr shoemaker protocol and it stopped all bowel function,
    on enemas since dec 2010.
    I believe , just my theory, my bile ducts were toxic and I also have gallstones clogging bile ducts and the CSM pulled the massive load of toxins through bile and stopped function and bile flow. I think without bile flow =gut immobility.

    seems toxins are overwhelming cells-no nutrients, minerals INSIDE cell and cell not functioning properly, mitochondria and ATP lacking.
    I struggle with low pregnolone and RT3 both related to not being able to get hormones TO PERMEATE the cell wall


    i remove Hg in mouth and have been chelating per Cutler but not a lot better for 1 1/2 yrs . Will continue to chelate but believe i need to slowly open methylation AND DETOX THESE INFECTIONS

    suggestions?

    thanks

    denise
  12. dmac

    dmac

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    As I was waiting for a reply I read Rich's new revision of the SMP and thank you b/c it explains what the methyl mateB and folinic acid is and does,
    so many of my questions answered.

    It was a good explanation and description.
    Thank you to all the people that really get this and spend the time helping those of us that are starting out.

    I have been on this site for a while but trying to figure out all the infections and working on chelation and healing my gut but now it is time for this phase of the treatment,
    in fact should have been addressed earlier.



    I have to split the 800MCG Cap and am taking 100mcg of the combined methy b12/folate

    (from my description of my history and infections, above in past post does it seem like the methyl is the best to start with?
    and is it a good idea to add the folinic acid in my case?


    I have to be very careful with b vitamins and amino acids because from the b's i get a yeast reaction and from the b's and amino acids i get horrid brain fog and anger and anxiety.


    CAN YOU TELL ME WHY THIS HAPPENS?




    As well, taking the combo methyl b12 and folate as metafolin L-5-MTHF (I realize the liquid, sublingual is best for absorption but I can not tolerate some ingredients, esp the glycerine due to hypo kpp-will explain more on the post about "why is potassium supplemented on methyl treatment", so maybe you could help me with that over there?)

    A FEW QUESTIONS HERE FIRST...

    1. Since the methyl b12/folate I am on is a combined supplement,

    would it be better if I did straight methylcobalamin b12, and straight metafolin like solgar) so I can regulate the dose b/c we will eventually (maybe) do more b12 (up to 2000mcg) that the metafolin at 800mcg? This pure encap is very pure, with limited fillers, ect.

    tp://www.pureformulas.com/methylcobalamin-60-vegetable-capsules-by-pure-encapsulations.html

    * and with the combo, if I am having to split it, I don't know what doses I am getting of each ingredient.





    2. I believe b6 and glutimine is best for leaky gut, but amino acids cause horrid brain fog COULD THIS ALSO BE DUE TO METHYLATION PROBLEMS? or I was told it could be Blood brain barrier issues?
    I have to go very slow as well for all b's and amino acids, ALL cause brain fog if the dose is too high.

    3.. In trying the TMG, is there a test or a way to find out, other than sx, if it is helping or causing greater problem. I have read that taking too much can reduce something else we need in the cycle, could you explain that again? or point me to the explanation.

    4. Are there OTHER B'S you would suggest i try? for methylation? for leaky gut? for Blood brain barrier compromise?

    other co factors I could try?
    Could you list them? or is there someplace I could go to find them?

    I KNOW OF L-CARNITINE

    5. you said,
    "With the simplified treatment protocol, many people do not do this testing, and I have not told people that they need to do so, so they could be deficient in these minerals and not be aware of it. This is a problem. It's part of the compromise involved in trying to keep this treatment simple and inexpensive."

    IS IT BEST TO TEST THESE MINERALS INTRACELLULAR RBC. IS THIS RBC INSIDE THE CELL?
    MOST OF THE TIME MY SERUM LEVELS ARE OK,
    IT IS INSIDE THE RBC OR IS IT WBC? THAT WOULD TELL ME IF I AM DEF.


    Thanks for your help,



    Denise
  13. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Lisa.
    I think that going to every other day is a good idea at first, until you are able to tolerate taking the supplements every day.

    I don't have much experience with autoimmune diseases. Back in 2007, a person who had a history of several of them tried the methylation treatment and developed autoimmune scleritis in her eye. She went to an ophthalmologist, who gave her steroid drops, and that calmed it down. It could have done damage to her eye. So I recommend caution if there is a history of autoimmune diseases.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  14. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    Hi Rich

    Got a question for you! I´ve been improving steadily but i´ve still got this weird symptom.
    Nowadays i can do simple mental effort with no problems for long periods of time (which i couldnt for a long time),however when i do a mental activity that involves processing several information at the same time,i start getting the burning feeling and so on.

    The interesting thing is,it feels like my brain starts burning energy quite fast,and even if i stop the activity,the brain doesnt seem to stop.
    I´ve seen many people saying this is a sign of detox,but i´ve had this symptom before i started any treatment.

    Would this mean i still dont have enough energy for more complex things? or that i lack something for mental effort? or that something kicks in when i start doing more complex things? toxins? (it certainly feels like something kicks in and doesnt go away,even hours after).

    does anyone have any thoughts?

    thanks!
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Pegasus.

    Sorry to hear about this situation. I don't understand what's going on there. I remember that one of the original people who tried the protocol back in 2007 when I first suggested it reported this: "brain going very fast, bing-bong, bing-bong."
    That sounds like what you are experiencing. Maybe it's an aspect of excitotoxicity. If so, it should be corrected as glutathione comes up in the brain, if my hypothesis about excitotoxicity in ME/CFS is correct. But I can't say that I understand this for sure.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  16. redo

    redo Senior Member

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    Which symptoms got exacerbated?
  17. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    It should help with excreting toxins in several ways--but perhaps most by increasing reduced glutathione.

    Sushi
  18. Pegasus

    Pegasus

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    how much folic acid (not folinic) is it ok to take? my multivitamin and B vitamin together have around 800mcg.
  19. topghetto

    topghetto

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    Hi All,

    I want to start the simplified protocol created by Dr Rich Van K but, I have some questions about the following supplements that I purchased...

    Jarrow's Methyl-B12 5000mcg,
    Solgar's MetaFolin 400mcg,
    Folinic Acid 800mcg (I will cut 1/4 of the tablet so do not worry about that),
    Lecithin Granules,

    Do I also need to purchase the Neurological Health Formula? If possible, I would rather not due to expenses :(

    Farouk.
  20. daniariete2000

    daniariete2000

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    Do you know if Rich talked about a maintenance dose of his protocol after methilation is restored ?
    What is your experience about this ?
    Thanks a lot

    Daniele

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