1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Hunting down the cause of ME/CFS & other challenging disorders - Lipkin in London
In a talk to patients in London on 3rd September, Dr. W. Ian Lipkin described the extraordinary lengths he and his team are prepared to go to in order to track down the source of an illness, with examples ranging from autism to the strange case of Kawasaki disease.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    757
    Hi, Steve.

    I think that is O.K. In our clinical study, the women continued to take the supplements as we re-ran the panel, and the results came out fine. This panel is not very sensitive to whether a person is taking supplements or not.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  2. golfbuddy

    golfbuddy

    Messages:
    6
    Likes:
    0
    Amino acid testing

    Do you think any other testing is of benefit in seeing where you stand? For example serum or urinary aminos? Still trying to understand how sulfur drives the ammonia production but have just started trying to limit intake.
     
  3. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,307
    Likes:
    656
    UK
    Rich

    I dont know whether you have had time to look at my results yet, as I know you are so busy

    (and many thanks for your time) but there is something I wanted to ask since I have been trying to interpret the resuts myself - finally after two years.

    My methylmalonate and Figlute are not raised, which I have read are markers for methylation block so does this mean that I am ok? I can hardly think this is possible however as the rest of my results are so abnormal.

    I have just heard that I am to be funded to visit Breakspeare in London, and hopefully they will do the organic acids and digestive analysis. The one I have I paid for myself so a comparison will be useful but of course I dont know how much funding I will be getting so these tests may not be included.
     
  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    757
    Hi, Steve.

    Amino acids testing can be helpful, particularly to see if you are low in the amino acids needed by the methylation cycle and related pathways. I prefer the plasma amino acids test, but the urine test can be helpful, too.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    757
    Hi, Brenda.

    I'm happy to hear that you be able to go to Breakspear. I haven't finished studying your test results yet, but will get back to you when I have.
    Use of methylmalonate and figlu as markers for a methylation cycle partial block depends on having high enough levels of certain amino acids and B vitamins. Without knowing these levels, it can be difficult to interpret the results, but I will do what I can.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  6. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,307
    Likes:
    656
    UK
    Thanks Rich

    Brenda
     
  7. Helene

    Helene

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    22
    Dear Rich,
    A question: if a person has many infections, can this methylation programme still be effective?

    Afterall, many folks have infections. I watched your Sweden presentation with great interest. I noted that the three patient results which were presented were of women who were not young. Did you have any young people in their 20s or early 30s in the study? Did you have people with lots of infections?

    Thank you for your enormous input and your generosity.
    Kind regards, Helene
     
  8. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    757
    Hi, Helene.

    Here are data on the ages and other diagnoses of the 30 women who participated in our clinical study:

    Ages: 33 to 84 (mean52) years

    Durations of illness: 1 to 20+ years

    Additional diagnoses:
    Migraine headaches15 patients
    Irritable bowel syndrome13
    Chronic sinus infections11
    Endometriosis6
    Restless leg syndrome5
    Mononucleosis (EpsteinBarr virus)5
    Mold exposure and/or toxicity5
    Multiple chemical sensitivity4
    Lyme disease (previously treated)2
    Interstitial cystitis1
    Mycoplasma infections1
    Chronic vulvitis0

    Some of the patients had been treated by Dr. Nathan for as long as 12 years prior to participating in this study. He had treated some of them for a variety of conditions prior to their participation in this study, including infections.

    While there were no people in their 20s in this clinical study, I have interacted by email or in the internet groups with many twenty-somethings who have ME/CFS, and quite a few report benefits from this treatment.

    I would say that if a person has many infections, their immune system is dysfunctional, and one of the benefits of treating the vicious circle mechanism involving the methylation cycle is that it has the potential to restore the immune system to normal operation. If the infections are simply treated with antibiotics, antivirals and antifungals without restoring the immune system so that it can take over the defense of the body against infections, the treatment is not likely to be successful.

    The question remains as to whether it is better to try to treat the infections first, or to fix the methylation problem first. I favor trying the latter first, and then adding specific treatment for infections as necessary. If it is done in that order, I think there is a better chance that the immune system will be able to "pick up the ball" and give lasting benefit from the specific treatment of the infections.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  9. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

    Messages:
    605
    Likes:
    282
    Surrey
    Rich I think you're right on this one (also). In my case and in hindsight it would probably have been easier addressing methylation first. Treating the infections helped recover methylation in part but by doing so I paid a cost due to my system being overwhelmed with the triple whammy of antibiotics toxicity, microbes toxins and other accumulated toxins such as metals. Going straight for the infections, particularly if these have been there for some time, may cause one to suffer more than necessary.
    For eg. I have always found metronidazole effective but very tough to endure. After addressing methylation that med seems now a walk in the park compared to before. Still uncomfortable at times but bearable.
     
  10. kiteman

    kiteman

    Messages:
    15
    Likes:
    0
    Hi Rich / Anybody
    Can you tell me if Metagenics Folapro and Solgar Metafolin are the same ( ie L-Methylfolate), i see that the Folapro is called L-5-methylhydrofolate ? It is a bit confusing, i believe that the solgar product is the same as Deplin and was now told my the shop that the Folapro is the same as well ? Would appreciate some help - thanks :)
     
  11. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,464
    Likes:
    1,734
    Tundras of Europa
    It's the same.
     
  12. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    They are identical. I'm fairly certain they are both metafolin -- same ingredient manufacturer.

    Metagenics FolaPro: As Metafolin U.S. Patent Nos. 5,997,915; 6,254,904.
    Solgar Metafolin: Metafolin is a registered trademark of Merck KGaA, Darmstadt, Germany.

    hixxy
     
  13. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    Has anyone noticed any difference at all in efficacy of Quatrefolic vs Metafolin? Are there any other effective forms of 5MTHF?

    hixxy
     
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,464
    Likes:
    1,734
    Tundras of Europa
    Hi Rich,

    I have a few questions.

    You have said that for those of us who tolerate the SMP, dosages can be increased. I have noticed that Myhill, Cheney, Pall and others recommend higher doses of hydroxocobalamin, something in the order of 10mg. Do you see any advantage in increasing beyond 2mg?

    Another thing I wonder, is if using higher than RDA doses of methylfolate could lead to the methylation cycle being overdriven, when combined with hydroxocobalamin only? Or would the conversion of hydroxocobalamin act as a brake on methylation, no matter the dose of folate?

    Are there any maximal doses of the methylation supps that you would warn against going beyond?

    Should a B complex always be taken at the same time as folate and B12? If for example, we take a B complex in the morning (with folate and B12), could we take additional doses of methylfolate during the day? I'm wondering because the half life of methylfolate is around 3 hours.

    Thanks!
     
  15. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    I can answer that one!!! :D

    Those doctors are using hydroxocobalamin at those doses for reasons other then for promoting methylation. It's used for antioxidant cover / scavenging nitroc oxide.

    That's interesting about the methylfolate half-life. Do you have a reference for this?

    That means we need to spread our doses throughout the day instead of just bombing it once.

    hixxy
     
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,464
    Likes:
    1,734
    Tundras of Europa
    Thanks. If you do a Google search, you'll find a bunch of references.
     
  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    757
    Hi, adreno and hixxy.

    The concept of mean elimination half-life is more appropriate to a xenobiotic drug than to an orthomolecular nutritional substance that is normally used by the body.
    Drugs are viewed as toxins by the body, and it works to eliminate them. Nutritional substances are used in the body's metabolism, and the cells import them from the blood, store them to some degree, and use them.

    The mean elimination half-life of a drug is usually evaluated by taking sequential blood samples to determine the time required for its concentration to drop to half its maximum value. In the case of methylfolate, if a large dosage is given, the excess will be excreted in the urine with a relatively short half-life. Maybe that helps to produce the three-hour number they cite. But meanwhile, the cells have taken in what they need, so it isn't as though it has all been lost after a few half-lives. More frequent dosing may help a little, but not as it does with a drug.

    With drugs, the dosing schedule is set up to counter the body's detox system, so that a therapeutic concentration will always be present in the blood. This works out nicely for the producers of the drug, because the person has to keep taking it, and thus has to keep renewing their prescription. When this is combined with the patent system, and the treatment only of symptoms in the case of chronic diseases, it has the makings of a very profitable setup.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  18. ldn

    ldn

    Messages:
    17
    Likes:
    0
    England
    Hi Rich

    Have been on the methylation program for about four weeks now-definite drops in potassium- supplementing with approx 1600mg tabs per day plus one or two bananas.

    Will the hypokalemia correct itself after a certain period on the active B's or will it only stop when I come off the methylation tablets ?

    What length of time are people taking active B's for ?- the theory is that they are a kick start for the methylation cycle which after a period should become self-regulating - is this correct ?

    Mnay thanks

    Ldn
     
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    757
    Hi, Ldn.

    I don't have clinical data to back it up, but I expect that the potassium demand will normalize after the body has had the chance to build up its inventory of cells, which has likely been depleted during the illness. I think that the reason for the hypokalemia is that new cells are being formed rapidly, now that the folate levels have come up and the cells are able to make new DNA and RNA at normal rates, to promote cell division.

    Our clinical study ran to 9 months, and some people's lab parameters were still improving at that time.

    If a person achieves full recovery, yes, the demand for the B vitamins should normalize. I do think that small maintenance dosages of B12, folate and NAC might be a good idea after recovery, to prevent relapse in case the stressors load goes up again.

    To achieve full recovery, in most cases it appears that the original causative factors need to be treated in addition to treating the partial methylation cycle block, and perhaps toxins and infections that have accumulated during the illness.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  20. Googsta

    Googsta Doing Well

    Messages:
    391
    Likes:
    156
    Australia
    I was wondering if I could get some help from Australian members & others who have tried the simplified protocol as I am planning to start soon.

    Did you have any issues with Aussie Customs importing the Holistic Health products?
    I can't seem to find any info on their site in regards to this.

    Are there products I can use from iHerb instead?

    Did you have the Methylation Pathways Panel & where?

    Thanks guys, these threads are way too long to catch up on :sleepy:
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page