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Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. ukme

    ukme Senior Member

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    Hi Rich, my daughter is currently doing your protocol plus the antibiotics/VSL probiotic regime from KDM along with increased B12. So just to recap you think it may be best to stop the 5 MethylTFH whilst taking the probiotics? I had no idea probiotics could make folate. Maybe this is the problem we are having right now, she is taking 2x VSL a day and is struggling.
  2. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

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    hi maryb, it is a bit hard to explain. there is a void that feels like it is coming from deeper within me, feels more refreshing when it is over and, looks more yellowish brown in color, and i see more yellow flakes in the whole mess. i'm assuming all that is bile. but maybe i'm wrong.
  3. Rrrr

    Rrrr Senior Member

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  4. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, ukme.

    At least in the one case I cited, additional folate production by the probiotic bacteria seemed to be intensifying the symptoms. It's difficult to say if this would hold for everyone, but I think it is a possibility. I hope things improve for your daughter soon.

    Rich
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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  6. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    Hi Rich,

    Quick question regarding B complex (e.g. Jarrows) + folate and slightly increased and bright yellow/slight greenish urination in the following hours. I am wondering if this is an indication of inability to absorb B vitamins and/or folate to some extent and would limit the efficacy of such a protocol. thanks and cheers
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Mellster.

    I think that's caused by spillover of riboflavin (B2) into the urine. It's a water-soluble vitamin, and if a larger dosage is taken than the cells are able to absorb, the kidneys filter out the excess and dump it into the urine. It's normal, and it shows that the person took a high enough dose to supply all that the cells could handle at that time. It's kind of pretty, isn't it? (If you're into that sort of thing!:D Sort of fluorescent looking.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  8. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Agree, B2 (R5P form) always does that to me.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I think that's caused by spillover of riboflavin (B2) into the urine. It's a water-soluble vitamin, and if a larger dosage is taken than the cells are able to absorb, the kidneys filter out the excess and dump it into the urine. It's normal, and it shows that the person took a high enough dose to supply all that the cells could handle at that time. It's kind of pretty, isn't it? (If you're into that sort of thing![​IMG] Sort of fluorescent looking.

    Let's try a very slight rewording of that reflecting a slightly magenta color tinge. Edited portions are in a color as close to the magenta as I can get with the supplied colors.

    I think that's caused by spillover of methylcobalamin (B12) into the urine. It's a water-soluble vitamin, and if a larger dosage is taken than the cells are able to absorb, the kidneys filter out the excess and dump it into the urine. It's normal, and it shows that the person took a high enough dose to supply all that the cells could handle at that time. It's kind of pretty, isn't it? (If you're into that sort of thing![​IMG] Sort of fluorescent looking.

    In combination with the aforementioned riboflavin it might be closer to orange.
  10. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    RICH - One thing that has steadily improved on your protocol is skin rashes. My oldest daughter (29) has a variety of skin issues that have been worsening over the years, despite dietary and contact-allergen interventions. I'm wondering if she might benefit from b12 or from your whole protocol. She has very high energy and exercises regularly, so she doesn't have CFS. I would buy her the b12 drops, since there's no way she'd keep a sublingual under her tongue for 45 minutes.

    What's your opinion? Worth a try?
  11. lucyhem

    lucyhem

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    Rich
    I have finally gotten oriented enough to get started on my protocol. I have ordered the supps from Holistic health. Now if I am going to ease into this protocol, is there an order that you recommend for starting? One given is that I had a dramatic response to Deplin (high dose) which then faded. So should methylfolate be the last thing to add in?
    I would be happy to hear from anyone else about the order of preference for easing in that worked for them.
    Lucy H
  12. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I've just finished 7 weeks on the simplified protocol, and it's a very up and down process. I had fabulous energy the first few days, but was quickly back to where I started. I had a week or two of headaches and mild nausea, which has mostly passed. I now sleep well (4-5 hours straight before waking and falling back asleep) 2ce a week, which is a miracle. This has steadily improved starting the end of the first week. The other nights I spend an hour getting to sleep, and wake every 2 hours. My (lifelong) psoriasis has improved by 75%, and other, newer rashes have improved 90%. I'm keeping notes across a wide spectrum of symptoms, and everything that fluctuates (like memory and brain fog) shifts according to how much sleep I've gotten.

    I take the drops and 1/4 cap. of folinic acid on waking, a scoop of monolaurin a bit later, and everything else + biotin with breakfast. I take 6 of the multis, spaced 2-2-2 through the day, with calc (500)/mag (250)/D3 (200).

    Edit: I spent yesterday mostly on my bed, and have just had 2 nights of awful sleep. I woke up today feeling exhausted and nauseous, wrote this post, and then went out running errands for 2 hours. So there's improvement that over the long run is steady, but in the short term is jerky. I did substantially up my protein this morning and I think that helped.
  13. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, madie.

    I really don't know, but given your experience with improvement of rashes and your genetic relationship to your daughter, maybe it would help her to try it the protocol.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Madie.

    I'm happy to hear of the benefits, and sorry about the reversal. Different people seem to respond differently to this protocol. I think it is involved with mobilization and excretion of toxins. As the methylation cycle function improves, it corrects the dysfunction of the rest of the sulfur metabolism. The detoxication system depends to a great extent on sulfur-containing substances, so as it improves, it mobilizes more of the stored toxins into the blood. The job of extracting them from the blood and excreting them can take some time, as the kidneys move them out in the urine, and the liver and intestines work together to excrete them in the stools.

    Some people have benefited by taking activated charcoal to bind toxins in the gut and prevent them from being reabsorbed. If this causes constipation, Milk of Magnesia can be slurried with the charcoal. So long as the kidney function is normal and the person is drinking enough fluids. the kidneys can excrete the excess magnesium.

    To help the kidneys to excrete soluble toxins that are in the form of weak acids, it can help to take some lemon juice. Somewhat paradoxically, this will cause the urine to become more alkaline, and that will help to avoid reabsorption and increase excretion of these types of toxins, because they will be ionized to a greater degree. It's important to use a drinking straw and to flush the teeth with water afterward, because citric acid will chelate calcium and can damage the enamel on the teeth over time.

    The rashes, in particular, suggest that mobilization of toxins was involved.

    I hope that you will be able to experience benefits from this treatment again, soon.

    I favor taking the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel after a few months in order to check the progress of the treatment, because it can be difficult to gauge the progress from symptoms alone, due to the fluctuations.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    Lotus97 likes this.
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Lucy.

    For people who want to start gradually, I recommend starting with the multi and the phos. serine complex (or lecithin, if cortisol is low), then adding the B12, and then the folates.

    The intensity of the response can usually be controlled by adjusting the dosages of the folates, though it can take a few days. I hope it goes well for you.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  16. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    Madietodd:

    I have been doing the protocol for about three months now.

    I read the instructions on the multi bottle, and saw the 6 per day. I tried that and had to back way off to 1/2 tablet a day for a month before I could increase to the 1 a day I am at now. Even at 1/2 a tablet a day, I was noticing improvements. I have had a lifelong sore throat that is almost back to a normal color now. I have had the same up and down swings that you are talking about. If I start feeling bad, I immediately cut back on the multis, and I almost always feel better the next day.

    I have also noticed that the folates cause headaches, and I back off the dosage on them also If I am still feeling bad after backing off on the multis. If I am not mistaken, isn't the suggested dosage for the multis 2 per day?

    I hope that this works as well for you as it has for me.

    John
  17. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    QUESTION FOR RICH--

    Will the protocol help with MCS and with histamine reactions to pollen and other allergens?

    You haven't talked much about MCS, and I'm curiouswhat your experinece has been with that...?
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Allergies and MCS and the methylation protocol


    Hi, Dreambirdie.

    With regard to lowering histamine and thus helping to decrease allergic symptoms, I think it probably will. In the early days of CFS research, there was work done on allergies, because PWCs reported that they had a big problem with them. I think the late Stephen Straus of the NIH (not a very popular figure among the PWCs of the day because of his emphasis on depression in CFS) was involved in this work, as I recall, and the result was that PWCs were not found to have more Type 1 (IgG-histamine) allergies than the normals, and this has always been a puzzle. It may be that because of the methylation deficit, the histamine level rises higher and stays up longer when there is an allergic reaction in a PWC, and maybe that accounts for the reports that allergies are worse in CFS.

    With regard to MCS, maybe. :D I think there is more than one subset within MCS. Some people with MCS can trace the onset of it to a big exposure to some volatile chemical that they had at a certain time in the past. This apparently damaged the olfactory epithelium in their nasal cavity so that there is no longer a good barrier to prevent entry of chemicals and their transport to the brain via the olfactory bulb, and they develop sensitivity to a whole range of different chemicals after that.

    Other people with MCS report that their cases of it came on more gradually, so an acute damage event involving the olfactory epithelium would probably not be involved in those cases.

    Marty Pall (who has studied MCS a lot more than I have) has told me that some cases of MCS clearly do not involve entry into the brain via the olfactory epithelium, so perhaps in those cases the chemicals enter the blood via the lungs and are transported across the blood-brain barrier from the blood to the brain. This would be a slower process than direct entry via the olfactory epithelium, I think. Marty also told me that several of the chemicals to which people with MCS are sensitive are known to excite the NMDA receptor, and that would produce excitotoxicity.

    I do know that Dr. Grace Ziem has had some success in treating MCS using glutathione and B12 mixed together in a nebulizer, so that suggests that glutathione depletion might be involved in at least some cases of MCS.

    A few years ago I cooked up a hypothesis that might explain at least a subset of MCS. It's pasted below. I don't know if it's valid or not, but it might be. If it is, then I think the answer to your question would be yes, at least for a subset of MCS. I would be interested in hearing from people who have MCS whether they found any benefit from this protocol.

    So as I wrote, maybe.:D

    Best regards,

    Rich

    February 15, 2008


    Hypothesis for the Pathogenesis of Multiple Chemical Sensitivity

    Rich Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.


    The olfactory epithelium in the ceiling of the nasal cavities is a small patch of tissue that is made up of two major types of cells, the olfactory neurons and the supporting or sustentacular cells, which are interspersed with the neurons. The olfactory neurons have axons that are connected into the olfactory nerve, which is the shortest pathway to the brain from the outside.

    The olfactory neurons have cilia on their surfaces facing the nasal cavities, and these incorporate receptors that are specific for the various substances that can be smelled.

    In addition to the olfactory neurons and the supporting cells, the olfactory epithelium also contains cells that secrete mucus, which covers the cilia.

    The supporting cells contain cytochrome P450 enzymes at concentrations higher than are found in the liver. It seems clear that their role is to break down (perform Phase I detoxication on) substances that are inhaled.

    In normal operation, inhaled substances are dissolved in the mucus, and those for which there are sensitive neurons elicit nerve impulses that travel to the brain and give the sensation of particular smells. The supporting cells apparently then break down and dispose of these substances, maintaining the sensitivity of the olfactory neurons to substances that are newly arrived, and protecting them from the entry of toxic substances.

    It is known that glutathione plays a major role in detoxication. Not only does it conjugate certain toxic substances in one of the major Phase II pathways, but it also serves to quench hydrogen peroxide that results from the action of superoxide dismutase on the superoxide free radicals that are generated by the action of the cytochrome P450 enzymes in Phase I detoxication.

    If the supporting cells are deficient in the reduced form of glutathione, I suggest that two adverse effects would occur. First, a state of oxidative stress would arise, because of the buildup of reactive oxygen species. These species would be likely to damage the membranes of both the supporting cells and the olfactory neurons. Second, toxic substances would not be broken down, but instead, in the presence of the damaged cell membranes, would likely enter the neurons, and from there would have a short path to travel into the brain, thus producing symptoms such as headache. Neurons are known to have transport mechanisms involving molecular motors that move substances along microtubules.

    It would seem that this model for multiple chemical sensitivity would explain several of the observed features of this disorder. One is that people with MCS are sensitive to a range of volatile substances. Another is that symptoms appear very rapidly upon exposure to inhalation of these substances. Another is that temporary relief can often be obtained by using a glutathione nasal spray.

    If this model is correct, then it would seem that a cure for MCS might be brought about by restoring the levels of reduced glutathione in the sustentacular cells on a longer term basis. In autism and in chronic fatigue syndrome, it appears that glutathione levels are held down by a vicious circle mechanism that involves a partial block in the methylation cycle, at methionine synthase. Since MCS often occurs together with chronic fatigue syndrome, perhaps this same biochemical mechanism is responsible for MCS. If this is true, the same treatments that are being found helpful in autism and CFS may be helpful for MCS.
  19. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    John - Thanks for the advice about the multis. I thought Rich recommended 2 tablets because so many people react to a larger dose. But you're right, the dose on the bottle says 6, but the protocol says 2. I'll cut back for now.

    I had thought the nausea and headaches were signs of detoxing. I (sort of) welcomed this evidence that the protocol is working. I use lemon juice and freshly juiced greens when the nausea is too much, and that helps a lot. Maybe it's the supplements - its hard to tell.

    I was right to increase protein. I had lost my taste for meat about 2 weeks ago, but realized today that with my allergies, I can't get enough protein without it. I've been eating it all day, and have stayed pretty active.

    Have you had up and down swings on top of a baseline improvement? Or.......what has your path looked like?

    Madie
  20. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hey Rich--This definitely describes me. I had several BIG chemical exposures in the late 1980's and early 1990's, which slammed me down so hard that for the next several years, I became a universal reactor. If I stood next to a car, I would pass out from the exhaust fumes. If I opened my door to someone who had washed their clothes in Tide, I would be ill for 2 weeks. If I ate anything but the 5 foods I was not allergic to at that time, my throat would start to close up. It was a hellish time.

    Even though I have greatly improved since then, I'm still not able to be around any chemicals or fragrances without a serious MCS reaction, which usually sets me back for at least 3 days.

    Also, there is the fact that I broke my nose when I was in high school and had to have a surgery to correct my crooked broken nose. I remember the doctor telling me that my allergies "could get worse," but I had absolutely NO IDEA how bad "BAD" could get. Now I know!


    THis all makes sense to me. I feel like chemicals go straight from my nose to my brain.

    REGARDING the GLUTANTHIONE NASAL SPRAY.... where could I get that?

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