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Simplified Methylation Protocol Revised as of Today

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by richvank, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    What are the symptoms that you are calling "detox"? The reason I ask is that the term has been applied to a lot of things are actually something else which can be corrected easily and also that can be dangerous. For instance hypokalemia induced by methylation starting up and cell formation proceeding has a whole lot of symptoms that are often called "detox". Hypokalemia, if continued and worsened can cause death. Relief can be had in one hour and future such reaction prevented. If a person is taking NAC or glutathione or glutathione precursors they often have a reaction that is called "NAC detox" or "glutathione detox" which actually is an induced folate and b12 deficiency regardless of what else you are taking. If a person is taking folic acid and/or folinic acid one reaction many people have is a paradoxical folate deficiency that also proceeds into b12 deficiencies if continued long enough.

    So, to work through this, and find answers for you if possible, and to relieve the symptoms you are experiencing if possible, to start with are you taking folic acid, folinic acid, NAC, glutathione in any way or form or precursor set or undenatured whey? Sometimes the folic acid, NAC or glutathione precursor sets are taken as part of one or more multi-ingredient supplements intentionally or accidentally.
  2. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Freddd, the holistic health formula that is part of Rich's protocol has 75mg of n-a-c. Rich, I hope you'll weigh in on this issue, because I'm not going to switch out one of the 5 elements of your protocol without more discussion. I think the issue is the difficulty finding a multi that's low in folic acid.

    I'm also hoping to hear from you, Rich, about adding to this protocol after just 2 weeks. Do I lose anything (including information) by adding potassium, calcium, D, and A right away? What if I also add the adb12/mb12? Does adding Metafolin after, say, another 2 weeks muddy the waters?

    I'm pretty functional, so I don't feel pressured to rush this process. If I'm going to end up on these supplements for the rest of my life, I'd like to be as confident as possible that I actually need all of them. Otherwise, when I feel better I'll stop taking things.

    Some of my (grown) children have unusual skin rashes, and if I want to play with the possibility of B deficiency, can we start with a multiB and sublingual b12?

    All of my varieties of rashes are healing, and the dripping sweats just happened that once. I'm left with a general heat intolerance, but the effect isn't so dramatic.

    As always, thanks for all the time you spend helping all of us.
  3. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I am taking about 400 mg folapro (L 5 methyltetrayhydrofolate) maybe 5mg of methyl b12, sometimes 200 mg (or is it mcg) or folinic acid, 400 mg of sam-e (i plan to cut those pills in half for 200 mg or mcg), some molybdenum, zinc, magnesium, manganese.Lately added potassium.. maybe 80 mg.

    Yes, I do take glutathione and NAC. I never could wrap my head around yr theory on this one.. It seems to help me.

    Detox: waves of nausea and kind of poisoned feeling beginning around 4a.m.

    Thing is I am also on 200mg of diflucan.. & maybe I shld just do 1 or the other.. diflucan or methylation. Maybe both together are too much.

    But the symptoms do clear up on handfuls of EDTA & OSR.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    I think that entire nausea and poisoned feeling would clear up if you were not taking the folinic acid and the glutathione and the NAC. Also, if the b12 and folate were being effective you would like need maybe 10x as much potassium. I don't know about the diflucan but the others are almost certainly causing you a problem. I would say the odds range from about 1:5 to near certainty. I think it is worth a trial before going to a lot of expense and trouble and possible increased illness from the removal. I am speaking from experience on this, mine and quite a few others.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    I'd like to continue on a few things.

    Yes, I do take glutathione and NAC. I never could wrap my head around yr theory on this one.. It seems to help me.

    Let's consider this in more detail. First there are effects, practical demonstration. Then there are possible theories about why it might cause those pragmatically determined effects.

    So let's look at the pragmatically determined effects. This is from http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...duced-Methylb12-and-Methylfolate-Deficiencies

    According to one website, http://www.beccashealthtips.com/symptoms.html symptoms for glutathione caused detox reactions are low energy, achy muscles, light headedness, headaches, flu like symptoms, coated tongue, runny nose or allergy symptoms, stomach aches, uneasy digestive tract, fevers, feeling like throwing up, and sometimes old symptoms that have been suppressed.

    The symptoms listed for folate deficiency on other web sites are irritability, depression, sluggishness, forgetfulness, diarrhea, loss of appetite, gastrointestinal complaints, fatigue, macrocytic anemia, paleness, red sore tongue, reduced sense of taste, weight loss, confusion, difficulty walking, loss of reflexes, dementia, muscle weakness, bleeding easily, heart palpitations, behavoral disorders and angular cheilitis.

    So to start with there is something that can ONLY be noticed by somebody taking a LOT of b12. It takes doses of mb12/adb12 on the order of 25-50mg or more sublingual per day or at least 10-15mg injected per day. This is purely because of the visibility issue in urine. It takes this much to see it reliably at least a couple of times per day. Glutathione caused an immediate increase in urine output of b12 equivalent visually to doubling, tripling or possibly more, the dose. This occurred in everybody who was taking enough to be visible. This isn't theory. It is easily demonstrated and totally predictable. According to the chemistry that appears pretty reliable is that the several forms of cobalamin that are not already in the mitochondria are almost instantly converted to glutathionylcobalamin. It happens very quickly (demonstrable). Theoretically because of the massive amount of glutathione (hundreds of mgs) to b12 (tens of mgs at max) the conversion to glutathionylcobalamin completely overwhelms the body's ability to convert some 10s of micrograms to active form from the inactive glutathionylcobalamin. This appears to happen pragmatically. Only the "why" is theoretical. However, b12 deficiencies take a while to manifest. What happens when there is no active b12 in a cell when needed is that the methylfolate cofactor is flushed from the cell causing symptoms of folate deficiency which start to manifest far more rapidly than the b12 deficiency sympoms. This folate flushing from the cell was named "methyl trap" hypothesis back in the 1960s. It has since been verified and validated. That this is the explanation for the observed phenomenon is theory. However, again that is the explanation of an observed effect that is theoretical, not the observed effect.

    So now let's consider who might notice that. A person who has had substantial relief of perhaps hundreds of symptoms via the active b12/folate protocol will notice a return of old symptoms. A person who hasn't relieved these symptoms in the first place won't notice the return of symptoms because they never left. They started out with these deficiencies and they continue with them. What they might notice then is whatever benefit they feel from the NAC and/or glutathione. If they had produced the glutathione by restarting methylation in the first place they already have that taken care of so all the notice is the return of folate and b12 deficiency symptoms. If they have all their deficiency symptoms in place what they notice is the possible benefits and sometimes a worsening a limited number of symptoms as the deficiency continues and worsens.

    So far I haven't found anybody who when they discontinued the NAC, glutathione and folic/folinic acid and take Metafolin, doesn't have an improvement and get rid of the "detox" symptoms. Getting rid of the NAC, glutathione and paradoxical folate deficiency then allows the mb12 and adb12 to be effective.

    FMS/CFS appear to be a concentrator for people with paradoxical folate deficiency. I can even reasonably theorize that the spread of folic/folinic acid and cyanocbl/hycbl are at the root of the massive increase in these kinds of problems in the last 50 years. This whole group of diseases that are on the increase appear to be stealth deficiency diseases. They are stealth, hidden in plain sight, because the doctors and researchers think that folate deficiency and b12 deficiency can't happen despite other research showing that these vitamers are only partially effective. They have been conditioned by decades of drug research showing drugs don't have the same beneficial effects on everybody so they assume vitamins are the same as drugs. Personally I got tired of being the sacrificial "inevitable" write-off based on incorrect assumptions. It benefits nobody to misidentify hypokalemia, paradoxical folate deficiency and NAC/glutathione induced folate deficiency as "detox". It keeps people sick for years or decades because they will NEVER get better without the corrective actions and some will die from it.

    I'm recovered from FMS and CFS, and everything else by many names. I still have some neurological damage from decades of deficiencies. And some old injuries that are still causing problems. Like RED04's wife (you might read his story, it is only about 10 posts in all) who is back in training for marathons or whatever, I can do all the normal stuff for a 63 year old and then some.
  6. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Would you see a 25g scoop of whey protein powder in a day as a possible contributor to deficiency symptoms?
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi L'engle,

    I don't know about the 25g, but yes the whey had the same identical effect for the couple of people who did the test with it. If it is affecting you that way you can know in a matter of days.
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Freddd- I'm not hearing from Rich (I hope he's on a fabulous vacation), and I just re-read your last post to me. I'm guessing you saw my post #182 and are waiting a bit. This time what I 'heard' when I read it is that adding the vitamins and adding the 2 more forms of b12 might be helpful at this point. My only question is, in terms of knowing what's doing what, would it be better to stay strictly on the protocol I'm on (adding just the vitamins) for a full month, before playing with more b12, and then later with metafolin? Oh - and for potassium, calcium citrate, and A and D, is it important to buy "5-star" brands? I'm going to stay on the holistic health multi.
  9. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member

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    Does anyone have a link for Rich's conference poster?
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Substituting the multi

    Hi, Lisa.

    Thank you for the birthday wish!

    I don't know how well the Thorne supplement would work. The multi in the simplified protocol was developed by Dr. Amy Yasko specifically to support the methylation cycle and related pathways, and the additional supplements that are in it above the usual vitamins and essential minerals do play important roles.

    If you decide to go ahead with the Thorne supplement, I hope you will post about how it goes for you. Looks like it has plenty of folate. More B12 may be needed, though.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  11. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Madie.

    Sorry to be so slow in responding. I haven't had as much computer time lately, because I've been trying to finish a house remodel.

    In response to your question, I don't have a very solid answer. I think it depends on your goal. It sounds as though you want to nail down which supplement does what. If that's your goal, then I think that going slowly and adding one thing at a time would be the way to go.

    It's difficult to give a blanket statement about which supplements would be beneficial to take, because everyone has a unique set of inherited genetic polymorphisms, as well as a different nutritional status, different degrees of gut function, and different comorbidities (toxic mold, Lyme and coinfections, heavy metal toxicity, viral and other bacterial infections, etc.)

    As I've written in the past, there's no good reason to believe that the simplified protocol I've suggested is the optimum protocol for supporting the partial block in the methylation cycle in any particular individual, but it did show significant benefit for about two-thirds of the women who met the diagnostic criteria for ME/CFS in the clinical study conducted by Dr. Neil Nathan, M.D., and myself.

    When lab testing is feasible, I favor doing it, and that can give information that will enable a more focused approach. As you probably know, the simplified protocol was extracted from the full treatment program of Dr. Amy Yasko. She does extensive testing, including both genetic and biochemical testing on each person, and recommends tailored treatment for each, using a large number of supplements, which recently have been combined into several combination supplements. Her supplement list has included methylcobalamin, adenosylcobalamin, carnitine fumarate, and I think probably everything Freddd is recommending, for a long time, and she recommends various of these depending on an individual's test results.

    The simplified protocol is a compromise, intended to lower the cost and complexity of this type of treatment, but inevitably a compromise is going to lose something, and the full protocol will help more people than the simplified one does. It is probably also true that a better simplified protocol could be put together. The problem is that we have so little clinical testing data on a carefully selected set of patients. Projecting from known biochemical and genetic theoretical understanding is helpful, but it only goes so far. Extrapolating from the anecdotal experiences of one or a few people can also give some insight, but it's important to keep in mind that we are all unique, and that a treatment with high dosages of active forms of vitamin B12 will address many different B12-related disorders, not just ME/CFS alone. So when something helps an undefined group of people, it's difficult to extrapolate that confidently to people who have defined ME/CFS.

    I prefer to proceed cautiously, because I have had the experience of hearing from a few people who had to go to the E.R. when they tried the methylation protocol, even though it consists only of nutritional supplements. It appears that these people had comorbid conditions in addition to ME/CFS. This is one reason I insist that people need to be monitored by a physician while on this type of treatment.

    I wish you success, however you decide to proceed with your treatment, and will be interested to read your updates.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  12. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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  13. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Rich - Thanks for clarifying. I thought maybe there was benefit in having people do your protocol as written, for a certain period of time. I'll go study up on the various forms of b12 and dosing parameters, and figure out what I want to do next

    I AM distinctly better, able to garden (sitting down) for a few hours most days, for almost 3 weeks now. I'm on the right track!

    Good luck with your remodel.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    You have made an excellent start and now have a basis for comparison. Now it's a matter of building on your successes. Mostly you can add, going from simple to more complicated, filling in the remaining blanks and improving performance. Excellent. I spent the afternoon in the garden as well. Today was the warmest day so far, 70 and sunny.
  15. Lisa

    Lisa Senior Member

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    Thank you for the reply Rich! :D

    I've had a busy week or would have seen this sooner. I will give this a lot of thought. There are a few things in the neural multi that I would prefer to skip (cyanocobalamin, folic acid, binder/fillers), but I can certainly see where some of the other stuff could be very helpful.

    I will definitely post and update on how things go once I figure out what to do and get started. hehe :Retro wink:

    B-12 won't be a problem with the Thorne multi, I take hydroxy shots every few days and that should cover it. Also a Perque sublingual when a little extra is needed, they both treat me well.

    Big hugs and thanks for the help! Lisa :Retro smile:
  16. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Hello all,

    Didn't someone post about a B-complex that doesn't have any folic or folinic acid in it? I thought I saw that 2-3 weeks ago but now can't find it.

    Thanks in advance,

    Dan
  17. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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  18. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Rich -

    I'm just starting week 5 of your simplified protocol. My brain is working pretty well today, so I went searching for articles you have written; you posted a link to me a few weeks ago. The link isn't working. Could you send it again, or a new one if the writing has moved? I've started organizing all this information on a huge piece of paper, so I can find it and not have to ask so many questions!

    Thanks!

    Madie
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Link to Rich's papers

    Hi, Madie.

    I'm glad to hear of your improvement.
    It looks as though the link to Cort's site has gone belly up :)-), so right now I think the best place to find my papers is in the files section of the Yasko cfs_yasko group. I think you will have to join the group to access the files, but this group has been stable for a long time, and hopefully will remain so. Here's the url:

    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/CFS_Yasko/

    Best regards,

    Rich
  20. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Rich, thanks for the link. I'm already a member, so this is easy. I'm mildly nauseous all the time, and I'm choosing to see that as a sign that methylation is coming online. The mental clarity appears when I "cheat" and drink caffeine! If I don't do it too often, it works like a charm.

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