1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
A disease with two faces? Re-naming ME/CFS
Persuasion Smith covers the bases on the misleading and disreputable name for our disease we've all been saddled with ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Similarities between ME/CFS patients and astronauts

Discussion in 'Problems Standing: Orthostatic Intolerance; POTS' started by Emootje, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. Emootje

    Emootje Senior Member

    Messages:
    281
    Likes:
    96
    The Netherlands
    In this review David Williams provide an overview of the many complex physiologic changes that take place in short- and long-duration space flight, most often in response to microgravity. It is remarkable that some of the described physiologic chances also occur in ME/CFS patients. Both have low blood volume, impaired cellular immunity, reactivation of herpes viruses, orthostatic intolerance and increased circulating levels of catecholamines.

    astronauts.JPG treatment.JPG
     
  2. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Likes:
    245
    NC
    Note to self: Call NASA to cancel astronaut training. :)
     
  3. MishMash

    MishMash *****

    Messages:
    445
    Likes:
    480
    Georgia
    Excellent observation, Emootje.

    The only thing possibly causing this in astronauts is an impairment or malfunction somewhere in the HPA axis. Probably due to the lack of a diurnal cycle, weightlessness, possibly variations in oxygen.

    Which raises the point: is ME/CFS basically an impairment very deep in our HPA axis? Probably genetically based. In which case looking for viruses and pathogens is a waste of time. The enemy is our own bodies.
     
    AFCFS and Emootje like this.
  4. Emootje

    Emootje Senior Member

    Messages:
    281
    Likes:
    96
    The Netherlands
    Good point!
    You could conclude that the viruses are secondary due to an impairment in cellular immunity. Besides HPA axis abnormalities, an increase in sympathetic tone (due to low blood volume?) can cause this reduction in cellular immunity:

    symp nk cells.JPG
     
    leokitten, MishMash and AFCFS like this.
  5. SOC

    SOC Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes:
    6,444
    USA
    The similarities are downright uncanny. Maybe we were all kidnapped by aliens (unbeknownst to ourselves) and kept in microgravity for days or weeks. ;)
     
  6. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    5,127
    Likes:
    3,398
    N. California
    Gives new meaning to how "SPACED OUT" I often feel.

    Now I can tell people that my brain is busy orbiting other galaxies far far away. :alien: :)
     
    WillowJ, Emootje, ggingues and 4 others like this.
  7. AFCFS

    AFCFS Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Likes:
    245
    NC
    Using the rather colloquialized version of Occam's Razor, in essence suggesting "other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one," I think in years to come they will find the real culprit to be Tang.



    - I was skeptical of this stuff even as a kid :)
     
    xrayspex and Asklipia like this.
  8. MishMash

    MishMash *****

    Messages:
    445
    Likes:
    480
    Georgia
    Hmm, why do I get such a nasty CFS crash when I fly more than one time zone, against the direction of the sun? Why do I get sick when the length of days change in the Fall? Or when the barimetric pressure changes suddenly? We are dealing with a complicated illness here. I definitely don't have a future in space travel. Maybe I can live near the center of the earth.
     
  9. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    7,245
    Likes:
    6,296
    Albuquerque
    Did you know that there have been researchers studying CFS/dysautonomia patients to get research data for astronauts cause there are so many more of us--so we are much cheaper to study! :eek:

    Vanderbilt was involved.

    Sushi
     
  10. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

    Messages:
    6,669
    Likes:
    10,067
    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    I think you're on to something ... I was abused by Tang as a child, and I'm certain that caused my ME :p
     
    merylg likes this.
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,226
    Likes:
    3,104
    If these effects are due to zero gravity, then I wonder what would happen if you lived under increased gravity? Would that have an opposite, health boosting effect? Could we cure ME/CFS by centrifuging ourselves for a few weeks at 2g? Just kidding, of course.
     
  12. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    7,245
    Likes:
    6,296
    Albuquerque
    That sounds like one of the more promising protocols! ;)

    Sushi
     
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,388
    Likes:
    4,777
    australia (brisbane)
    One similarity missed is feeling 'spaced out' :rofl:
     
    Nielk likes this.
  14. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,388
    Likes:
    4,777
    australia (brisbane)
    sory just saw this, and i thought i was being clever with my previous post, i was just too slow:ill:
     
    GracieJ, ggingues, Valentijn and 2 others like this.
  15. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

    Messages:
    8,213
    Likes:
    5,175
    Sth Australia
    That thou doesnt explain the large ME outbreaks.
     
    natasa778 likes this.
  16. Emootje

    Emootje Senior Member

    Messages:
    281
    Likes:
    96
    The Netherlands
    On earth they study microgravity-induced hypovolemia by head down tilt (HDT):
    Clinical aspects of the control of plasma volume at microgravity and during return to one gravity.

    HDT.JPG

    They also link this hypovolemia with orthostatic intolerance and reduced V02max:
    "A pronounced 10-20% reduction in plasma volume is induced within 24-48 h of exposure to microgravity. The clinical importance of microgravity-induced hypovolemia is manifested by the relationships between the magnitude of plasma volume reductions and orthostatic intolerance and reduced V02max after return to one gravity"
     
    Snow Leopard and MishMash like this.
  17. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

    Messages:
    839
    Likes:
    260
    NASA is apparently researching the use of Vasper Training (Heapsreal how about enquiring about the distribution rights for this in Aus?!)
    It's essentially exercise, cooling, grounding and compression. A little info here: http://www.vasper.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=130
    (I'm doing everything but the intensive exercise bit,...obviosly that part is not advisable for most of us.)
     
    MishMash likes this.
  18. MishMash

    MishMash *****

    Messages:
    445
    Likes:
    480
    Georgia
    Emootje and taniaaust1 like this.
  19. MishMash

    MishMash *****

    Messages:
    445
    Likes:
    480
    Georgia
    Unfortunately, I've concluded long ago that the virus reactivation is a side reaction to something much deeper. And your explanation about the hypovolemia works for me. Are we the chosen few? I can't think of any other reason other than genetic susceptibility. I have postulated that it's just structural weakness in the body's barriers and boundaries. Our guts are permeable, our blood brain barrier is permeable, our organs are permeable causing multiple ailments, illnesses. Or maybe not...

    The folks who experienced the Chronic Fatigue epidemic at Incline Village were all living at altitude. That's near Tahoe, Reno. Maybe they were just a vulnerable population. The other famous involved nurses, didn't it? Nurses getting sick from something at a hospital/clinic is not outside the range of impossible.
     
    Emootje likes this.
  20. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,309
    Likes:
    841
    UK
    Wow can I be an astronaut - floating in space will be very comfortable.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page