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Silly question.. why do the Bs feel so bad?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by chilove, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Hello all,

    I just posted about being recently diagnosed with MTHFR mutation and Sarcoidosis.. trying hard to figure this all out while dealing with a newly acquired EMF sensitivity.. FUN! :) My local medical team is sympathetic and supportive but at this point I'm leading them..

    I'm trying to understand why if we need the methyl Bs so badly do they hurt so damn bad when we start them? :) What actual process in the body is causing the pain (and for me temporary insanity)? How long does it usually last? I'm sure everyone is different but is there any way to know how long to expect?

    Thanks so much!

    Audrey
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Audrey,

    Please describe exactly what occurs and exactly what you were taking and how. Thankyou. With those answers I may be able to give you an answer that works.
  3. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Hi Fred

    I was taking 7 to 8mg of Solgar folate as metafolin and 5000 mg of Jarrow methyl B12-- When I tried the "regular" dose I took just one 800mcg Solgar Folgate and one 1000mg Jarrow methyl b12

    Vit c.. not sure how much because it's powder.. 1 tablespoon 2 to 3 times per day

    Drinking electrolyte water all day long and eating artichoke hearts all day for extra potassium.. my diet is EXTREMELY potasssium rich overall (I can only eat raw fruits and veggies)

    ZInc 30 mg

    Also on BHRT

    Worst symptoms were fatigue, pressure in chest, feeling like can't breath, bad pain in bones/joints and muscles and severe emotional ups and downs and paranoia and anxiety

    Thanks so much!~

    Audrey
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Audrey,

    Were you taking the basics required for these things to work well like b-complex, a, d, e, magnesium, calcium, potassium omega3 oils etc? Also, did you take the potassium that almost every body needs starting by the third day as all sorts of potassium defficiciency starts up as potassium plumets as cell formation gets going? Are you are aware of the startup effects as ones nerves wake up showing us all of our pains and so on in exquisitly sharp detail and a much higher perceived intensity along with sensory brightening of all sorts? Nerves start coming awake and tingling and pain start up where there was possibly loss of sensation before.

    Also, are you taking anything not listed that might have included folic acid, folinic acid, glutathione, NAC, whey or a vegetarian? Do you have IBS, sores by corners of mouth, peeling fingertips amnd around nails?

    I have never heard of anybody getting enough potassium from the diet to deal with this quick change in potassium level . I take it you didn't try the suggested 500mg dose with a large glass of water for 30 minute relief if it is low potassium.
  5. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    No, I was only supplementing the Bs I listed, the Vit C, Zinc and electrolytes (which includes potassium and calcium as well as others) mix in water plus working hard to get extra potassium from food.

    No sores or peeling fingertips; but nails are really in bad shape.. they are breaking very easy all of a sudden.

    I did not try the 500 mg of potassium but will when I start your protocol tomorrow. :)

    Thanks so much your response. I really appreciate it.
  6. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Fred, do you know why taking the methyl Bs causes the potassium to drop so suddenly?

    Thanks!

    Audrey
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Chilove,

    The thing to remmeber is when methylation is not working right and cells are not getting made, this has so many effects throughout the body that I can't begine to describe them. According to one article I read it said that over 600 different things can be traced to the active b12s. The catch is these are all dependent upon another dozen items. Without all those things everything starts and then stops almost immediately, still broken but slightly differently. Startup often doesn't feel great because it's a journey of 10,000 steps. For the first 9999 things still are broken, just differently. Some things don't feel right until the final step. For some things that can be in 2 weeks, for others 2 years or more. I try to help a person identify the troublesome things like low potassium and other things that are roadsigns to healing. So make sure you at least have potassium at hand, have the basics and observe carefully. A daily diary keeping track of each thing as it changes can be good. Good luck.
  8. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    I had a similar response when a doc had me start metafolin by itself, but when I watched potassium, b-12 and other critical co-factors, things smoothed out a lot.

    Good luck
  9. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Thanks so much guys!

    Other than the potassium issue (which I will watch religiously because I did end up in the ER a few weeks ago with low potassium and low sodium) what other concerns/precautions might a highly sensitive and allergic person who has a history of severe "detox" reactions take into consideration when starting this protocol??

    I definitely only want to start with one supplement at a time and add slowly. From what I've read on this forum and Fredd's post I should start with the methyl B12 right?

    THANKS SO MUCH! You guys are awesome! :)
  10. therron

    therron

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    Hi Chilove,
    Some of us are ultra sensitive to methyl supplements (possibly MTHFR since I have two defects 1298 and 677). I had to start with just a "crumb" of mB12 and mfolate, then slowly work my way up over a 6 month period. At the same time, I was also building my basics: A, D3, E, dha/epa, and more. By the time I reached 1,000 mcg of mB12 and a split dose of mfolate (2x 400), start up effects stopped. You might want to try this low and slow approach. Be patient
  11. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Is it an actual "detox" reaction in that its pushing toxins out or its just a physically uncomfortable process as the nerves wake up?
  12. chilove

    chilove Senior Member

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    Oh! That is very encouraging! I'm VERY eager to heal ASAP of course.. but its good to know that it is possible to gain benefit and progress with teeny tiny amounts over a longer time frame.. very encouraging!

    What symptoms did you get that told you you needed to back down and proceed more slowly?

    Thanks so much!
  13. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    It's funny you should say this. I've had IBS since I started country life adb12 two weeks ago. Now I've started to peel a little around a finger nail or two. And I just noticed a small sore starting on my lip, near the corner.

    It's the folic acid creeping up on me, right? I think I'd better stick with the mb12 until my source naturals adb12 arrives.
  14. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Hi Fred,

    Chilove stated, ".....; but nails are really in bad shape..they are breaking very easy all of a sudden."

    Fred, if you have an idea about this will you please offer them? Since starting the active protocol only recently I, too, have had the weak, breaking off nail problem. Thanks.
  15. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I'd like to make a comment about angular chielitis--the sores at the corner of the mouth. I NEVER had this before in my entire life until I was looking after my brother-in-law with neuropathy one day and my sister keeps a lot of junk food in the house. I have a bit of low side of normal thyroid so I never keep junk food in my house. Sure enough I ate more than my share of junk food and I had missed taking my Vitamin E because I ran out and hadn't gotton around to buying another (I take 1g d-alpha-tocopherol/day). I was SHOCKED to develop those sores at the corner of the mouth. I looked it up and SURE ENOUGH - it can be caused by insufficient E. Now I realise that eating a lot of carbs is going to up my requirements for B's, but here's something else interesting...I REGULARLY ate lots of junk every PMS, I regularly took a B100 non-active (don't think actives were available in the past) and 1g E, and I never got those sores. I made them go away in about a week (well scabs don't heal immediately you know!) If you get such sores, look to THREE things:
    (1) You ate too much junk carbohydrate for the B/E you are taking
    (2) You are not taking enough active B complex
    (3) You are not taking any/enough E

    On the other conference people made a BIG DEAL out of taking the active B complex (I take Thorne Basic B) twice a day and what a big improvement it made over once a day. Some nutritionists recommend taking B's 3x/day (I speculate that is because B1 only stays in the system 3-4 hours). So...are you taking th eactive B's 2-3 times /day? Eating a lot of sugar/starch? Not taking enough E?

    P.S. I don't want anyone to get prostate cancer by reading above. www.lef.org said there is evidence that d-alpha-tocopherol (the active anti-oxidant) w/o gamma tocopherol can lead to prostate cancer.
  16. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Re: nail issues above:
    I don't have time to search this out to prove it but from my reading I believe this is a sign of low copper. If your hormones have started to wind down (over 40 or 50 for women, over 60 or 70 for men) you may be copper deficient because estrogen and testosterone increase the half life of copper. Taking zinc with insufficient copper is not a good idea. methionine synthase enzyme uses copper, so once the methyl cycle is working, it will use some copper, and if you don't have enough, perhaps making you deficient elsewhere. The problem is that there is no accepted reliable way to measure copper status other than liver biopsy (invasive). You can do a google search on the string "Lowe copper Cambridge" to find a paper which reports on studies into copper's role in bone mass, in particular citing details from a study in which bone mass was increased by calcium:zinc:copper:manganese in the ratio: 1000:15:5:2.5. The only unusual thing in that is the copper dose. If you look at any standard multiple you will find copper at 1.5 to 2 mg per 15mg for zinc. It is well known that multi vitamin use is linked to osteoporosis. *I* believe it is because they cause copper deficiency. You can get a hair analysis at traceelements.com to determie copper status to the best of our current ability. copper is a poison and I am afraid of it so I am sure I do not supplement enough. What I do is use a copper solution called CP serum from skin biology (online) to get "a little extra copper". It took care of some abnormal skin on my neck that developed at menopause. trace elements diagnosed me borderline low copper after menopause and not at all deficient before. So I think they are doing a crediable job of determining approximate copper status.

    Copper is what allows cross-linking of collagen. Without enough your skin is made with cells sitting one atop another like the bricks of a house that are not staggered and therefore not strong. Since your blood vessels are skin, and skin w/o cross-linking is not strong, the blood vessels won't withstand much pressure and can burst (aneurism). I believe nail collagen works the same way, but not positive. You can search on google/scholar to see what you think.

    Rydra
  17. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    I thought this thread was going to be about b's causing stomach upset, which they do for me. Anyone else notice that? Do anything for it? Thanx!

    Ryrda
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    That is a BINGO for paradoxical folate deficiency it looks like. Yes the folic acid creeps up on you as the unchanged FA builds up over time. The good news is now you know what it looks like in you.

    Have you had episodes of these symptoms other times, perhaps seasonally with lots of fresh veggies during harvest seasons or eating vegetarian or just on and off over time?
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rydra,

    Yes. I can't take a b-complex on an empty stomach. Also, I can't take it with just eggs or just meat. That causes nausea and vomitting. I have to have it with mixed foods, bread, potatoes, rice, fruit, veggies that can also include eggs and meat. I use the eat 1/3 of meal first method. Take each seveerl vitamins then a mouthfull of food and rthen more pills until all gone in middle third of food and then the last third on top.
  20. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lou,

    When I started each of mb12, adb12, Metafolin and l-carnitne fumarate my nails got thicker and stronger. The mb12 caused a ledge across my nails as they all doubled in thickness at the same time. When my partner was traveling, she overdid it and collapsed for a day. As her nails grew out there was a groove across her nails where the cell reproduction almost stopped for a few days. Induced deficiencies can cause the nails having thinner spots and more tearable.

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