Severe ME Day of Understanding and Remembrance: Aug. 8, 2017
Determined to paper the Internet with articles about ME, Jody Smith brings some additional focus to Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance on Aug. 8, 2017 ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Significance of MTHFR Dysfunction

Discussion in 'Diagnostic Guidelines and Laboratory Testing' started by zoe.a.m., Nov 7, 2010.

  1. zoe.a.m.

    zoe.a.m. Senior Member

    Messages:
    367
    Likes:
    27
    Olympic Peninsula, Washington
    I'm curious about how many people here have had the Methylenetetrahrdrofolate Reductase DNA test?

    A phone consult with my enivronmental/ ME/CFS doctor resulted in a recommendation for this test. He mentioned folate and several other basic things, but it was a complex appointment and the MTHFR test barely stuck in my mind. The two other gene tests I've had for CA 125 and Cytochrome P450 were negative (the latter very much to my surprise at the time), so I wasn't expecting a positive result.

    However, I just received the results on Friday that I am:
    Positive for one copy of the C677T mutation and one copy of the A1298C mutation.

    There is a short description of the results on the lab sheet, but I wonder if anyone else knows a simpler breakdown. I've researched it on the net, but would like to know its implications in ME/CFS (onset? course? treatment?).

    I was able to get my local ARNP to order the test on the non-insurance-covered doctor's advice and she was clear that she could not interpret the results and that she was not familiar with this test.

    I've searched it here at PR and have found several mentions, but it would be nice to hear how many have been tested and if it's yielded any productive knowledge for anyone: thanks!
     
  2. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Likes:
    3,847
    London
    I've also got a MTHFR mutation. It was two copies and I can't remember which gene (c677t or a1289c). The results were over 5 years ago and hard to find now.

    My experience has been that supplementing with folic acid helps me with neurological symptoms. The mutation may explain why B6 makes me feel worse and B12 by it's self didn't help.

    I've been meaning to try the Yasko protocol which deals with these issues but I've not been able to get around to it yet. Have a search for the simplified protocol on this forum. There is also a Yasko Yahoo group which may be a good place to post as well. I find this all hard to understand and even the simple explanations are beyond my brain problems sometimes. However, there are flowcharts which show where the blocks may be and how to get around them with various mutations.

    Dr Cheney mentioned that MTHFR was something common he found in his patients as well.

    XMRV+
     
  3. MargeM

    MargeM MargeM

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    0
    Interesting. I recall that I had a few DNA tests taken about five years ago, and MTHFR was included in the test. The results were negative. I just learned last week that my pcr/culture from VIP was positive.
     
  4. zoe.a.m.

    zoe.a.m. Senior Member

    Messages:
    367
    Likes:
    27
    Olympic Peninsula, Washington
    Hi XMRV+,
    Do you not supplement B6 or B12 then? Or do you take a combo B? B12 shots are helpful for me and I began the Folapro (part of the Yasko protocol, or at least was the form of folate recommended at the time), but stopped as a series of things brought on a crash that lasted a couple of months. Will you say which type of a folate supplement you're taking?

    It's surprising to me that if Cheney has been testing for this for a while and even my doctor knew about it that not much seems to be known about it.

    That is interesting. Are you wondering about the relationship between this gene mutation and XMRV? I wonder, if this is seen in a lot of ME/CFS patients, it could be part of a subgroup (imagining that we had true subgroups established at this time!).
     
  5. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes:
    3,197
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    I have one copy of the C677T mutation. My naturopath was iffy on whether that would be enough to mess up my methylation cycle.

    The definitive test is the Vitamin Diagnostics test recommended by Rich Vank. On that one I have a classic CFS profile and partial methylation block. I've been taking methylocobalamin and Folapro for about a year. It's subtly helpful with energy. The main thing it's helped me with is MCS. It's helped me significantly - about 80%.

    However, I also have very badly crashed adrenals, and I"m on adrenal cortex extract. I'm hoping that the combo of methyl B12 and methyl folic acid + getting my adrenals back online will help significantly with energy. It's just going to take awhile, like a year.
     
  6. *GG*

    *GG* Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,020
    Likes:
    4,587
    Concord, NH
    Hope you are happy with a result for your Xmrv?!
     
  7. Nickcnate

    Nickcnate

    Messages:
    9
    Likes:
    0
    New here. I had the MTHFR test this year and am positive for the genetic defect. It's my understanding is that the body can't metabolize folic acid -I was prescribed Deplin-but my insurance wouldn't cover it so then I was RX'd a high doses of folic acid and had a severe allergic reaction. (naturally-if my body doesn't break it down!) ugh
     
  8. MargeM

    MargeM MargeM

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    0
    I believe my first reaction to hearing the news was a very large grin. (the relief of finally knowing what "it" was, after 14 years of tests without solid answers)
     
  9. MargeM

    MargeM MargeM

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    0
    Nickcnate,
    So folinic acid wouldn't work for you also? From wikipedia -



    Folinic acid is a 5-formyl derivative of tetrahydrofolic acid. It is readily converted to other reduced folic acid derivatives (e.g., tetrahydrofolate), and, thus, has vitamin activity that is equivalent to that of folic acid. However, since it does not require the action of dihydrofolate reductase for its conversion, its function as a vitamin is unaffected by inhibition of this enzyme by drugs such as methotrexate.

    Folinic acid, therefore, allows for some purine/pyrimidine synthesis to occur in the presence of dihydrofolate reductase inhibition, so that some normal DNA replication and RNA transcription processes can proceed.
     
  10. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes:
    3,197
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    No, you actually want to take extremely tiny doses of 5 methyl tetrahydrofolate, which would be Folapro or the equivalent. The methyl form is already converted for you (the block means your body can't convert it itself). Since the block causes a lot of toxins to build up, when you start on the Folapro, you'll start to excrete toxins. When the toxins come out, you'll feel crappy. So you need to do it very slowly and cautiously or you will pay for it.

    I started with 1/256 of one Folapro, which I was on for months before I was able to increase to 1/128. I'm still only up to something like 1/32 and I've been on it for a year or more.
     
  11. helsbells

    helsbells Senior Member

    Messages:
    301
    Likes:
    13
    UK
    I have severe mcs and am very interested in this thread, particularly that you say it has been helpful for mcs Cal. - do I read the yasko protocol? Are these her tests?
     
  12. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Likes:
    3,847
    London
    Sorry this is a hotchpotch of answers and comments as my brain is really bad today, mostly for Zoe's questions.

    B Vitamins like a multi B have always made my symptoms worse plus I get extra stomach ones
    Vit B6 has always made me worse and increased weakness, neurological problems and mood
    Vit B6 as Pyridoxal phosphate is helpful to me
    B12 as injections of cyanocobalamin did nothing for me (or may have even made me worse)
    B12 as lozenges of Methyl B12 does nothing noticable for me
    ActiFolate I can tolerate
    Folic acid (high from the NHS in the UK I can tolerate)

    It may be that if I tried all these different things together in a proper protocol (like trying the Yasko one) I may make some progess. It's just that I tried different things before I heard about it and am trying something else unrelated now. Hope to have the brain power and money to try it next.
     
  13. zoe.a.m.

    zoe.a.m. Senior Member

    Messages:
    367
    Likes:
    27
    Olympic Peninsula, Washington
    How does the folate defect cause toxins to build up? Forgive me if this question has the world's most obvious answer: my brain and body are nowhere near up to speed. I found out my sister has been given folic acid (or whatever form would be appropriate in this case) injections a few times and her doctor suspects she's had this problem. I've found the injectible B12 to be helpful with MCS, but it seems that everyone's benefits/reactions to different types of B are so incredibly different.

    My test paperwork states that both parents should be tested (I guess to see if both defects are on the same chromosome). It also suggests genetic counseling of some sort. Has anyone pursued either of these?
     
  14. Gucci Gang

    Gucci Gang

    Messages:
    1
    Likes:
    0
    Wonder if this Gene/DNA/RNA actually repaired to normal functioning through Epigenetics, and Future treatments like gene therapy.
     
  15. btdt

    btdt Senior Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes:
    59
    Ontario
    @caledonia
    "The definitive test is the Vitamin Diagnostics test recommended by Rich Vank. On that one I have a classic CFS profile and partial methylation block. I've been taking methylocobalamin and Folapro for about a year. It's subtly helpful with energy. The main thing it's helped me with is MCS. It's helped me significantly - about 80%. "

    Maybe this is so old it does not make the list of things I should be interested in... but I can't over look something that can make mcs symptoms 80% better. I know we have talked about a protocol of supplements... sorry I think we have or I read what you posted... sorry again I can't trust my brain to know what I have done right now... lets say I recall your name at this point and know we have some things in common and I need to keep on eye on you for healing hints... I know this is s sloppy social foo paw as nobody like to not be remembered but it is the best I can come up with now. Should I go back and find past contact... with whoever I have contacted here I will be out of energy to keep looking for things that could improve my lot by 80%... and I can't risk that for a social problem brought on by a physical one... and I expect people here to understand this... I do even while I know most of the world doesn't. I don't want to keep saying this either as it is unlikely that it is going to change any time soon.....
    that said I need to know more about this.

    How did you sort this out by doing dna the vitamin diagnostic test or both... would that be a naturopath? How did you come up with the dose? Once you came up with it how did you get it?

    "I have one copy of the C677T mutation"
    I have this too.
    "methyl B12 and methyl folic acid +"
    I was pursuing this with the Yasko pages before my last crash since coming here I have read comments that Yasko is full of it.. and have passed this over. When I was looking at Yasko the type of B12.. based on dna... this is the link I can find today
    https://www.knowyourgenetics.com/media/pdf/Simplified Protocol.pdf
    this is what is in the chart....

    COMT V158M VDR Taq B12 types that should be tolerated - - ++ (TT) All three types of B12 -- +- (Tt) All three types with less methyl B12 -- -- (tt) Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12 +- ++ All three types with less methyl B12 +- +- Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12 +- -- Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12 ++ ++ Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12 ++ +- Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12 ++ -- Mostly Hydroxy B12

    I am Comt v158M +/- VDR taq -/-
    according to this chart I should be taking Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12

    I was trying to sort what all I should be taking when I crashed and never got back to it. There is one person maybe more one I have noticed here who does not think Yasko is right however ... what this person thinks Yasko is missing the boat on may not be this but some other Yasko stuff.. I can't keep details in my head just now... sorry.

    There is a lot on that link I posted above to digest and many many supplements to think about.

    Here is my problem I am scared to death of trying anything as I have so many really bad long lasting reactions to drugs/ supplements already. Now that my body is jerking and I can't control it this has increased exponentially. The best hope to dig out of this hole is to keep my brain functional well enough long enough to sort it and not to be making big mistakes that have the potential to damage me more. I don't feel like I have a lot of room to fool around with stuff... there is no way I am going to look at Amy s protocol and start taking all those supplements at once I can't risk it. I have a naturopath... who suggested I do this testing to start with. Since the testing I had a major crash plus some infections and illness and I have not made it back to see him he is quite far away and I have not been up to the trip. All of the sprays and things he had me on I have stopped taking and he may not like that .. I have not been up to dealing with his disapproval... I have already reacted to and had to stop taking many things he suggested at not a little expense financially physically and mentally. He has had oppertunity to look at my dna online as I allowed him access ... during a phone consult... he suggested yet again that I take B6... we have been over this how it makes me depressed really bad... so even after seeing my test results he suggested it and so I tried it... lead to you guessed depression... I already knew it would and should not have listened to him.
    Last summer when I started seeing him he gave me a thyroid spray... based on testing it was after this that I started with the severe jerking... tho I did have it in other body parts before then.
    I have lost faith in him and decided I need to not hand my care over to another person as they don't know me... like I know me. Problem is I am too dense to sort out what I need to do.
    Now maybe I am being unfair with this nd.. tho I don't feel I am... so many people highly recommend him as being the absolute best... and maybe he is for what is wrong with them.
    I can't decide.. maybe one more apt to see what he comes up with from the dna testing... or just skip him and look for somebody else.
    Keep bumping along with what I have faulty brain and all... till I have some confidence in a decision... seems iffy too based on how my health can spiral from reactions ect.
    Find somebody new.. take another chance.. after I know more if I can stay kind of well long enough to sort this at least some.
    I was at one time an honour student... but have had years of getting lost losing and forgetting things... and outright stupor... so my confidence to do this myself is shaky at best.. still I just don't trust doctors... it does not seem to be in the cards for me. After years of handing myself over to them got me here.

    maybe it s a fear thing I need to do some brain retraining to over come.. I don't believe that for one minute....

    now maybe i am socially and outcast here too since this post we will see... but this is who I am and where I am at and I need some help.
    I am interested in opinions of next steps... too. Functional med doc? Back to the one I don't trust with a list of tests... would save initial apt costs.. intake all that crap that already cost me a small fortune... not to mentions concoctions that made me worse. Again.. I was so bad when I first seen him... I could barely hold up my head and am a bit surprised I even made it there.... but I needed help he was suppose to be it... maybe he was and is... I could not hold up my end well enough .. I can't decide...
    I am open to
    IDEAS....
    and I am running out of money... where I put the next bit is likely going to break me so I need the best idea... best chance to make the biggest difference.. I cannot afford to pay for wrong ideas any longer.
    thanks for reading this I know it is a lot...
     
  16. btdt

    btdt Senior Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes:
    59
    Ontario
    Another thing I was taking was an immune spray from the nd...

    yask stuff
    " New cells and the immune system The building blocks for DNA and RNA require the methylation pathway to function optimally. Without adequate DNA and RNA it is difficult for the body to synthesize new cells. New cell synthesis is needed to repair damaged cells, to maintain the lining of the gut, to make new blood cells as well as for your immune system that defends you against infection. T cells are a key aspect of your immune system and they require new DNA in order to respond to foreign invaders. T cell synthesis is necessary to respond to bacterial, parasitic and viral infection, as well as for other aspects of the proper functioning of the immune system.  Herpes, hepatitis and other viruses In addition, decreased levels of methylation can result in improper DNA regulation. DNA methylation is necessary to prevent the expression of viral genes that have been inserted into the body‟s DNA. Loss of methylation can lead to the expression of inserted viral genes such as herpes and hepatitis among other viruses."

    I have been plagued with mouth blisters we thought from food reactions but then they started in a genital way.. I thought I had herpes but each time I go to the doc they say no but don't test. Is there not a test for herpies could I not have caught it without having sex... have been sexless since 2006. I don't know maybe it was dormant maybe this is not a reaction at all. I have only one soap left I can use and have switched to bamboo toilet paper not sure it has helped. Do other mcs people have this issue? What kind of toilet paper do you use? I have resorted to rinsing with bottles of water after each toilet use as things are a mess again. This past wkend I had mouth and genital blisters come back took some antihistamines waited to see the doc monday same old cream that seems to help only are a barrier and is not of much use. Maybe I have had it for years and it just came out these last couple of years and maybe fixing methylation will fix this too. I am leaning back towards Yasko the more I read this link
    "In addition, phospholipid methylation may be involved in modulation of NMDA (glutamate) receptors, acting to control excitotoxin damage."

    i have
    COMT V158M+/-
    COMT H62H +/-
    VDR Bsm++
    MA0-A R297R ++ homozygous
    MTHFR C677T +/-
    MTRR A66G +/-
    MTRR K350A+/-
    CBS C699T +/-
    CBS A360A +/-
    The above is from genetic genie I am missing a detox gene....
    CYP1B1 L432V+/-
    CYP2C19*17 +/-
    CYPD6 S486T +/+
    CYP2D6 100C T+/-
    CYP2D6 2850C T+/-
    SOD2 A16V+/-
    NAT2 I114T+/-
    NAT2 K268R+/-
    GSTT1 ABSENT*

    A few other things from another program.. pro something or other... can't metabolise 30% of drugs on the market... +/- alpha 1 anti tryispins... same sort of thing for an iron overload thing... blah blah... lost the plot... now.

    I followed on with that link above which took me to this page for serotonin help... supplement
    http://www.holisticheal.com/seromood.html
    some of this and that not too alarming till you get to this one
    '
    PROPRIETARY EXTRACT BLEND: 431.8mg"

    I don't know how sick I would have to be to take a proprietary extract blend but I am not that sick yet or just now in any case...
    and just that quick I am not a believer and have to look else where...

    linked into that by this link... know your genetics
    https://www.knowyourgenetics.com/media/pdf/Simplified Protocol.pdf
     
  17. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes:
    3,197
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    Yes, this is an old post. I've since discovered that it wasn't the methylation supplements that helped the MCS, but getting the last of my mercury fillings out. I had several things improve about a year and a half after that. My autoimmune thyroiditis cleared up, my MCS improved a lot, my gut improved a lot, my adrenal fatigue improved about 50%. I was able to discontinue my thyroid med, neutralization drops for MCS, and many supplements.

    You mentioned not remembering who you've been talking to - don't worry, I can't remember everyone either! I do recognize your name and know we've been talking a bit lately on some other threads.

    I hear you on being scared to try things when you have had so many bad reactions. Been there.

    Here is a tip from my environmental medicine doc if you're having a toxic type reaction to something you ingested - drink some baking soda water. It neutralizes the reaction. Get a box of baking soda like Arm and Hammer, and follow the directions on the box for acid indigestion. I think it's something like 1/2 tsp of baking soda dissolved in one cup of water and sipped slowly. You can do that several times in a day if necessary. It's saved me several times.

    I don't know why this post would make you socially outcast on here. You're just looking for info and wondering what to do that is the best for your situation.

    I think you're the one that has the two year wait for treatment. We had talked about neutralization drops, and possibly visiting my doc. Accessibility to that doesn't seem possible now.

    I've also noticed further improvement recently from chelating out mercury and arsenic further with the Cutler frequent dose chelation protocol. I believe that mercury and arsenic are at the root of my MCS (and maybe most or all people's MCS). Removing them should bring improvement. This is something you can do yourself without a doctor. There are support groups to help.

    This is what I would try for MCS in the short term:
    1) Make sure your home is a safe space with no chemicals that bother you. Look at the handout I gave you from my doc to get ideas on everything in your home that could be an issue. If the item is more than a couple of years old, it's probably ok.

    2) If you need to take a cab, ask for someone who doesn't use an air freshener. If you find someone with an MCS safe cab, get their card and request them for your cab rides so you don't get zapped going out.

    3) Try niacinamide, grapefruit juice (if not contraindicated by your medications), and/or oregano oil. This page explains how Phase 1 & 2 detox issues cause MCS and why those substances are helpful.
    http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/liver-detox-pathways/

    4) Get started on Cutler's Core 4 supplements which are vitamin C, vitamin E, zinc and magnesium. Vitamin C will help with Phase 1 & 2 detox and glutathione. The others will help counteract the effects of mercury. I have Cutler info in my signature link that says "Caledonia's Methylation Links".

    For MCS in the long term:

    1) Look into the Cutler Frequent Dose Chelation protocol. If you don't need to remove mercury fillings, it doesn't cost that much. There is a hair test to determine the presence of mercury, only $85. I have Cutler info in my signature link that says "Caledonia's Methylation Links".

    For the body jerks:

    1) Have you tried magnesium and if so, did it help at all? Could be electrolyte depletion.

    2) Are you on any medications, and if so, what are they? Some medications can cause this.

    3) Other than that, it could be nervous system related.
     
  18. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Likes:
    2,018
    NSW Australia
    @btdt I'm sorry I only skimmed your posts, not up to reading much at the moment. Oral and genital blisters stood out to me though. Have you ever been considered or tested for Behcet's disease? It's a condition that has symptoms which overlap with ME/CFS and is rare enough that it is often overlooked by doctors.
     
    Webdog likes this.
  19. caledonia

    caledonia

    Messages:
    4,201
    Likes:
    3,197
    Cincinnati, OH, USA
    @btdt I forgot to mention, if you do decide to take niacinamide (a form of niacin), it could cause the infamous "niacin flush". It will make you feel hot and your skin will turn red like a sunburn. It's harmless, but could surprise or scare you if you're not aware this could happen.

    Like any supplement, it's best to start very low (like 1/8 of a normal dose or less), then work up very gradually to a full dose as tolerated. Otherwise known as the Start Low and Go Slow method.
     
  20. btdt

    btdt Senior Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes:
    59
    Ontario
    I have niacin 500mg hit and miss... can't recall why I stopped I use to take it everyday. the non flushing kind I made the mistake of buying once I was wondering this about it...
    if sweating is a detox thing and niacin makes me sweat with the flush could it also be another way of getting the sweat detox.. mind you I only took one of the flushing niacin and that was enough at that time but to get out of a hole I wonder about the sweating detox I have a vague memory about it not being good for the liver... not sure if that is accurate.

    I can take it natural calm for mag... don't like the malate much I brush my teeth with baking soda and clean everything with it and bonnars soap..vinegar. I can't keep my sons gf from using things that make me sick but she is better then she once was I just do a lot of cleaning the bathroom wearing my mask and replace a lot of charcoal filters... ect. Till I can find a place I can afford this is it...Last trip to the dentist I asked if I had mercury fillings he never answered... not sure how he avoided that .. but when your jerking around wearing a mask people treat you different with less respect imo.... I am running out of teeth so there are not many fillings left either I really suffered some bad reactions at the dentist and admit avoid them all now.. maybe i have to man up and deal with that when I get my feet really on the ground for a bit .. it seems I never get my feet on the ground anymore... maybe a day here or there to get laundry done and food. I have to do a better job at avoiding and will try the baking soda for recovery. I do take vit C

    That is a great idea for a cab I always have my mask on so have not been able to tell a good one.. I assume they are all bad at this point. I can tell a real bad one with my mask on but not a good one. I will ask if they have such a thing I have talked to drivers about this and they say all cabs have something cause the customers smell.

    I had the hair test mercury did not come up.. most things were ok. One was high can't recall what the chelation was barely grass as the nd doc was out of what he really wanted to give me... when I took it I seemed to crash... so I bought the one he has first wanted to give me and same thing with it. I can't recall what actually happened I know it wasn't good and I could not take as much of it or as often as he said to. sure seems like a long time ago that I tried it.
    I forgot about the protocol you suggested before I will have to look but seen that post of 80% better with methylation and thought that is where I need to go... I still think it is worth doing when I can sort it.

    I have all these
    vitamin C, vitamin E, zinc and magnesium. Vitamin C will help with Phase 1 & 2 detox and glutathione.

    I watched a video on glutathione treatment for parkinsons which impressed me... I bought a different kind and upped my dose and felt really well... I had been not taking it as much because I read it can cause your body to stop making glutathione and it is better to take the percursers... Nac... cystine glutamate...

    I felt really well for the first time in a long time and did some house work... then I crashed like a ton of bricks and that is why I am getting up at 2am like it is morning.

    I see a chiropractor an osteopath and take half a tylenol 3 when I can't tolerate my body any more it has gone up in dose I use to take a quarter... I know it is bad for my liver but I need to live. Sometimes I take more... if I could take harder drugs I likely would but I can't tolerate them... seriously I can't take them. I just throw up. I have taken a boat load of drugs in my life... I have a new understanding of the damage they can do had many reactions and try to be careful. Tylenol 3 is the only drug I take tho I do have hot cold creams for pain some menthol some other types.

    Body jerks to date they are saying they are cns...

    Started 10 maybe 11 now.. with head drops and one foot dragging... oddly enough that same foot has spells where it will kick up every few seconds it did this when I had an infection it and it did it the other day... till the other day the only two things that stop it were bed rest and I mean a wk or more or ammoxacillin... for some reason. Till the other day it started up right when I got to the chiropractor when she seen it she did a different treatment that seemed to calm it down.

    I do not jerk all the time.. this is the weird thing about ... but put my in a room with bug spray bam I am gone or candles jerk jerk jerk....

    it is for sure for me a reaction.

    I think my hair test was a lot more then 85 .. interesting will I go look likely not I have a mountain of paper that needs my attention I manage to not do it... so a paper about a test ..lost forever...
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page