Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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SIBO treatment phasing

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Journeyman, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    Hi Everyone,

    I've just returned from interstate having eaten all the wrong foods over Christmas. Three days of all you can eat wheat/dairy foods with alcohol. After following a hybrid low FODMAP / Fast Tract diet fairly closely for two extended periods over the past year (Feb 2017 to Dec 2017) which was broken up by 2 x 5 week Herbal Antibiotic regimes in Feb 2017 and then July 2017 (Per Alison Siebeckers advice re: FC Cidal with Dysbiocide with Neem and Peppermint/Oregano etc) I found that the first day of heavy christmas eating had little effect. My stomach was neither too heavily sore or bloated. By the 2nd days the effect was quite obvious, and waking up on the 4th day after 3 consecutive days of naughty eating the malaise, gut distension and putrid smell of my stool have given me all the motivation I need to quickly get back on track and get back to where I was before Christmas.

    Before diving back into my previous protocol I thought I'd see what the latest news in the field of SIBO was and came across the Bi-phasic diet per here: http://victoriafenton.net/blog/tag/biphasic/ (diet proposed by Nirala Jacobi) I was planning to just launch straight into my trusty Siebecker herbal Abx regime but I'm concerned about doing so whilst my gut integrity is still inflamed/compromised by the Christmas binge eating.
    Am I being overly concerned? Would 3 days of gorging on foods I rarely eat, full of fodmaps etc. have undone all my hard work in building up my gut integrity?
    Do I need to follow the principle of 'Reduce and Restore' proposed in the Biphasic diet to heal the gut before I subject it to the herbal Abx regime again?

    I've just taken about 5 Lifespace Broad Spectrum Probiotics (64billion per capsule per here https://www.lifespaceprobiotics.com/adult/broad-spectrum-probiotic-capsules/) and 7 Inner Health Plus Probiotics per here: http://ethicalnutrients.com.au/products/product/ihcdf
    and this followed 2 Saccharomyces Boulardii's taken earlier in day and 2 the day before. Needless to say I've just flooded my microbiome with healthy treats but how long do you think I should wait before commencing the Herbal Antibiotics?

    My plan at this stage is to commence the herbal antibiotics on Monday (New Years day) after doing a few 'recovery days' including high dose probiotics beforehand. I intend to do like last time and take Siebecker's FC Cidal and Dysbiocide at 1.5 x the recommended dose (with double dosage of a biofilm disruptor) first thing in morning and then last thing at night with the aforementioned probiotics taken in the middle. I will throw in a couple coffee enema's and see also about doing a short term Hydroxy B12 injection series to get my methylation up and running simultaneous to the gut healing..

    Thanks in advance for any advice / guidance - the knowledge in these forums is fantastic..

    Regards

    Journeyman
     
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  2. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    I don't think 3 days of overdoing it would undo all the work you have done. It does sounds like it has created some negative changes though.

    It sounds to me like you have a really good understanding of how to treat a leaky gut and dysbiosis.

    If you feel like it would be better to wait to go back on the herbals and clean up your diet again first, so that your gut issues settle down, then it's probably a good idea.

    The only other thing I would add if you aren't taking them, is glutamine and colostrum to help heal the gut.

    I have seen Allison Siebecker in many webinars over the last few years. She seems to have a vast understanding of gut issues.

    Jim
     
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  3. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    Really I'm just trying to do an effective reset of my gut in as little time as possible because I've got 2 months till University goes back and I have plans for pursuing many different things over the next 2 months that being on the herbal Abx will interfere with..

    If I could be sure that the integrity of my gut is largely the same as it was pre Christmas I could save a week or two by not doing a 1 week SIBO diet before the herbal Abx protocol and thats why I'm querying how much damage could possibly have been done by the 3 days of Christmas bingeing...

    Thats a good point you make re: the glutamine. I have that on hand and have been taking it every morning after a busy period of bike couriering to aid faster muscle recovery. I just have some concerns about its anxiogenic effects noting that it effectively works the opposite to GABA which is something I seem to generally be short of...

    Regards

    Journeyman
     
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  4. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

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    Maybe you could try the herbal protocol first and see how it goes? If it goes smoothly, with no big side effects, you should be all set.

    My sense of it is, that you couldn't have done very much lasting damage in just a few days.

    I have the same question regarding the possible side effect of anxiety with glutamine. However, I have been taking 6-8 gms a day for months and my anxiety levels are much less than they were a couple of months ago, because of the gut treatments I've been doing.

    Maybe my anxiety would be even lower if I didn't take the glutamine but It's suppose to be one of the best things for a leaky gut. So for now, I will continue to take it. Seems like everything's a trade off!:D

    Jim
     
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  5. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    Righteo here we are almost a week since my original post. I've lived like a saint, successfully followed a strict SIBO diet as planned for the better part of a week now and any kind of poor eating or drinking on new years. Also as planned, I've now commenced my 3rd round of the herbal antibiotic protocol consisting of the following:
    1. Biotics Research Dysbiocide - here
    2. Biotics Research FC Cidal - here
    3. Doctor's Best Best Proteolytic Enzymes (Included as a biofilm disruptor with Serratiopeptidase) https://au.iherb.com/pr/p/9941
    4. Nature's Way Neem - here
    All of the above are being taken at double their recommended dosage first thing in the morning on an empty stomach and last thing at night on a similarly empty stomach. I'm doing this to halve the overall duration whilst maintaining treatment efficacy. If anyone has anything to add on this I'd welcome your input..

    At midday I'm taking probiotics recognising their role in any herbal antibiotic protocol, and spaced far enough away from the antibiotics so they're not in direct competition:
    1. Inner Health Plus Dairy Free (Lactobacillus acidophilus (NCFM®) 12.5b and Bifidobacterium lactis (Bi-07) (12.5b) per here
    2. Saccharomyces Boullardii (2 capsules) per here
    3. Lifespace Broad Spectrum (1 capsule) per here <-- V impressive range of strain.
    As above these probiotics are being taken at double dosages to match the higher level of antibiotics.

    I plan to rotate to a different set of antibiotics at the mid point (1-1.5 weeks in) and conclude treatment by 2-3 weeks.
    What I'm really interested to get some info on is what more I can learn about my body and its dysfunction given that I've pretty much done what I can using gene test results (23&Me results from 2013 (v.3 chip)), and an Organic Acids Test (OAT) from Great Plains Labs done a year ago to the day which confirmed small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (hence my herbal antibiotic SIBO treating regime per above) which did give substantial benefits for me in 2017..

    I seem to recall Caledonia having an excellent guide for addressing health issues. It seemed to call for healing the gut first and foremost before then working on methylation, but I can't find anything that explains this overall strategy in her existing links... Naturally I'm keen to get advice on this or indeed access to this guide given that I should have my gut sorted in just a few weeks.
    @caledonia am I looking in the wrong place? Did you remove that particular guide in the last year or two??

    At this stage I'm planning to work on my methylation simultaneously but I need to address some unresolved questions per my last post here
    Where my key outstanding question is whether there's any use for my Hydroxy B12 (6 1mg injections) waiting ready to go for IM injection as I've done once before. Noting that recent blood tests showed high MCV/Low RBC indicative of B12 shortage even though its only 6-9 months since my last period of high (10mg Me/Ado B12 Transdermal per day over a week or more at a time) complimented with the recommended P5P's, Lcarnitine Fumarate etc. to unlock the 'deadlock quartet' that Fredd refers to. (Did the week or two of coffee enema's that I did twice since that time deplete my B12 levels and thus explain the larger and larger MCV results I see over the past year in blood tests?!?)
    Do I need to do the 3A2 B12 dosing for deep neurological healing to overcome some deep B12 deficit or does having a borderline RBC count (not that low) and only mildly elevated MCV preclude me having such a pronounced B12 deficit??

    I also plan to do my first Stool test (recommendations on a good value yet comprehensive/most useful test please!) once my gut is fully optimised (about 2 weeks after end of herbal antibiotic protocol) to see if what I think is 'fully healed' is actually that... and to see what areas I might still need to work on.

    I look forward to any helpful advice and sharing experiences so we can all benefit.. I've received some absolutely gems of advice here in the past that I've put to good use and I'd like to let you know its appreciated! @caledonia @alicec @ahmo

    Regards

    Journeyman
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  6. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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  7. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    @Journeyman

    I've dealt with rebuilding my gut twice, first after chemotherapy, then after antibiotics.

    You are asking good questions but I have a few thoughts that might help.

    First, if your gut lining is damaged, glutamine is quite helpful. If you start to feel very anxious, then cut back.

    Next, if you're serious, running a DNA stool test every 3 months or so is helpful. uBiome, American Gut, DiagnosTechs, and Genova Diagnostics are typical - they vary in what they show - some only do bacteria, but you'll also want to know if to be picked up any psrasites, fungi, or viruses, so you may want to rotate them - doesn't seem to be one perfect test.

    You're on a lot of probiotics, but they seem to all be lacto and bifido focused..you definitely need them, but you also need insoluble fiber for them to stick to. I spent a lot of money on high potency lacto and bifido products for 9 months and kept coming up with almost zero on stool tests. Finally, I went to Xymogen's 350 billion product for 6 weeks with a scoop of Thorne Research FiberMend and Seeking Health's galactooligosaccaride product, Probiota Immune, which did the trick.

    But, you need other strains, too. Eating a wide variety of organically grown vegetables will help. Then there are some specialty probiotics like PrescriptAssist, Dr Ohhiras, Mutaglor, Symbioflor, etc. which are good for encouraging diversity.

    As for B12, I read somewhere that your body has a long term supply of B12 it keeps on hand. If you've run through it and are continually low as you report, you'll need to attack it with gusto. You need 3 sepatate processes working well in your digestive tract, along with B12 producing bacteria to have your own natural supply working.

    Failing this, I've found that high doses of oral MB12 and AB12 help, but I also have an infection sucking it up, so I get IV vitamin MB12 weekly, along with MB12, HB12, and high potency B complex 2-3 times weekly, averaging about 10mg a day. With all of this, and appropriate folate supplementation, the lowest my zMCV has been 94. It typically runs 97-98, under the supervision of an expert doctor.

    Its not just B12, though attacking the right B12 dose is a good place to start, along with your gut. You also need adequate amino acids, particularly glycine, cysteine, and glutamine, as well as B6, B1, and molybdenum to get out of the methionine cycle, and down the transsulfuration pathway to create glutathione you need to mobilize toxins and get rid of them.

    For the methionine cycle you will need adequate B2, B6, magnesium, potassium, trimethylglycine, and possibly methionine.

    Then you can work backwards and address your folate cycle. You may need more 5-methyltetrahydrofolate and glycine there. You need the right amount of folate for you too much or too little produce disease. I am heterozygous for an MTHFR SNP and a few other folate cycle SNPs, but find I don't need as much folate as one would think.

    I'm not a fan of following anyone else's protocol, especially freddd's, which would make me quite ill. He had weird set of genes, different than the variety most of us have. The best test out there, is Genova Diagnostics NutrEval - I run it every 9-12 months and adjust from there, making smaller tweaks in the interim as I have symptoms.

    You can work on methylation while fixing your gut, in fact, it's be helpful, just realizing you may need to tweak doses over time.

    Finally attention to lipids is important for cell and mitochondrial membranes. Having poor methylation and a leaky gut is a recipe for disaster. Eating a wide variety of fats, so you get different lengths of chains (short-chain, etc.) and digesting them properly (the bile acid suggestion above is great) will help.

    You may also need phosphatidyl choline, serine, inositol, and ethylalomine, particularly if you have SOD2 and/or PEMT SNPs. A product called NT Factor is good for "lipid membrane replenishment.)
     
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  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi Journeyman,

    I think the document you're looking for is "Roadblocks to Successful Methylation Treatment" - see my signature link.

    It's just sort of a basic concept of naturopathic practice to have your gut working well before proceeding with other therapies, so that you can absorb and utilize nutrients.

    Having learned more things over time, my suggestion would be to spend a reasonable amount of time working on the SIBO (couple of months?), and if you're not making much progress, look at the possibility of toxic metals impeding progress.

    I'm doing ok with the Andy Cutler frequent dose chelation protocol (I have links to that too), but have not tolerated other protocols. Learner1 has done better with another protocol.
     
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  9. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Also check out Ben Lynch's new video on the PEMT gene and SIBO. The SIBO could actually be caused by a bile/gallbladder issue, and working on that could help fix the SIBO.

    Bile has antimicrobial properties, so issues with bile flow could cause the bacteria to proliferate. So fixing the bile issue could kill off the bad bacteria.

    It's the 8th video on this page: http://go.drbenlynch.com/fb-live-recap
     
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  10. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    Hi Eastman,

    You're preaching to the converted. I actually had an Organic Acids Test done by Great Plains Labs this time last year that confirmed I had SIBO and you're quite right. For almost every day over the past year I take 1 'Super Enzymes' by Now (includes Ox Bile) alongside 648gm of Betaine HCL (another NOW branded product) and I'm sure its allowed me to function substantially better in terms of concentration, and most notably: being able to have energy from heavy meals such as chicken/lamb/fish based dishes.

    Any recommendations on what else I can do. It looks like a stool test would be the most fruitful avenue to uncover any further issues that might explain my still unsatisfactory energy/concentration/anxiety levels...?
     
  11. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    You're quite right and I forgot to mention that twice a day I'm taking about 20mg of Glutamine (soon to be L-Glutamine) making a total of 40mg/day to heal my gut lining.

    This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for but can you elaborate on which I would chose if I already have some idea as to the nature of my problem. For Example in my posts from about this time last year (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lts-are-in-insights-sought.48762/#post-802867) I just got my OAT results in and I think overall it identified both bacterial and parasitic markers that all pointed to SIBO. I felt @renski was able to scratch the surface making some interesting insights regarding clostridia (a bacterial marker) and elevated HMA (suggestive of either low or high dopamine (this never got clarified :/) and made some reference to GI effects from Genova or Biohealth 401H. Whats your knowledge about these - which one is more useful for addressing someone who has SIBO. Really I guess the question is whether SIBO tends to result in elevated bacterial or parasitic markers, or both, and then which test best covers the relevant markers....?[/QUOTE]

    Thats some good insight there into my probiotics. You've rightly spotted that the one major absence is any form of prebiotics, but what would you say if I told you I was eating 2-3 kiwi fruits daily along with plenty of stir fried green beans/pumpkin/carrots/parsley/dill/cornichons etc. I'm guessing given the strength of the probiotic you ended up having to take that you'd say I'd have to eat several kg of the aforementioned foods to obtain the quantity of prebiotics needed to turn things around?

    What are the 3 processes you're referring to in the digestive tract? Also I'm interested to know what bacteria generate B12 and what foods need to be eaten to obtain this bacteria?

    Is there any difference between the effectiveness of IV B-12 vs Sublingual or Transdermal B-12? If you could advise the difference in terms of noticed observations following one vs the other this would be most helpful..


    This is exactly my feeling. If one knows how to monitor and treat the side effects / healing reactions inherent to a methylation protocol then I don't see why it should be done separately to a gut rebuilding program... @caledonia may have some suggestions on this? and I will certainly be revisiting her 'road blocks to methylation' to see what I might be missing in this context...

    For the better part of a year now I've been cooking all my meals with liberal amounts of Ghee - clarified butter which apparently is a perfect source of SCF's you refer to above and which I believe are vital for butyrate - the bacteria that feed the brain. I believe I'm heterozygous for SOD2 and will look further into this PEMT SNP you refer to...

    In conclusion the one summation of my OAT results thats currently ringing in my ears is someones comment that all my amino acids were low. For someone who piles in such a large amount of high quality protein foods at the time that really seems unusual. Will be interesting to see what an OAT re-test and stool test will show after this latest SIBO cleanup effort....

    Thanks for your useful and comprehensive input Learner1... its really appreciated and I look forward to anything further you can add re: above outstanding queries...

    Regards

    Journeyman
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  12. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    Hey @caledonia glad to get your input again. I've bookmarked the video and listened up to the first 30 mins. Looks like the Gall Bladder stasis is the source of SIBO in many cases. I didn't hear their input regarding the PEMT gene but I'm sure I'll find it upon a full viewing of the video. I

    'm guessing that when you have a hetero or homozygous PEMT snp you''re prone to developing gall bladder problems and thus SIBO? My mum had terrible problems with hers resulting in the removal to reveal massive stones some 15 years ago now... I wouldn't be suprised if I inherited her SNP (Is it viewable in the standard genetic genie report or will I need to search it through 23&Me look up function?

    Regards

    Journeyman
     
  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Go to your 23andme raw data and search for rs7946. T is the risk allele.

    Mine is PEMT TT (+/+). My mom had to get her gall bladder removed sometime in her late 70s. Her mother died from a gall bladder infection, age 81.

    I don't seem to have any problems so far, knock on wood.

    Lynch says that having PEMT mutations is quite common, like 70% of the population. So genetics aren't a guarantee you'll have issues, and epigenetics also plays a role. He gives info on what you can do epigenetically.
     
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  14. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    Are you taking one capsule of Betaine HCl a meal? If so, have you considered taking more?

    For bile acids, some members seem to have good results with Jarrow's Bile Acid Factors, which has considerably more bile acids than what you are taking.
     
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  15. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    Good that you're taking glutamine. However, more is not better...if you start to have any mood symptoms, you may want to cut back. I was advised by both my oncologist and my naturopath to try 15g a day. Are you sure you're measurement is mg?
    The 2 SIBO tests my doctors use are different. One was a machine to blow into, the other one was a set of tubes to blow into. There are dietary restrictions before the test (no carbs as I recall) then you drink a liquid and start the test.

    As for stool tests, I don't think there's a perfect one. You want a DNA test, not a culture. And ideally, not just bacteria, but fungi, parasites, and viruses. None that I've seen to them all, so I rotate them. In my family, living in the Pacific Northwest, we be had roundworm, pinworms, and blastocystis hominis parasites which needed to be dealt with, and candida and other fungi are worth knowing about.

    DiagnosTechs GI Map, uBiome, American Gut, and Genova GI Effects are ones you might try.

    I'd suspect some of your bacteria like kiwi, others don't. Various insoluble fibers encourage various bacterial species. Too detailed to go into here, but if you're really short on good strains, you can look to see which fiber and foods they like, which companions the like, and which other species are hostile to them. Its a relatively new science.

    In general, fruit has a lot of sugar, and will tend to encourage growth of candida, as well as cancer. Sticking to a wide variety of vegetables is prudent.
    This gives a lot of detail on B12 processing.

    http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/129/19/2603?sso-checked=true#ref-34

    "Several probiotic bacterial species such as Lactic-acid bacetria (LAB)- Lactobacillus spp.(species), Propionibacterium spp. or Bifidobacterium spp. can produce B12 and other B-vitamins. Whole genome sequencing is used to identify particular bacterial strains or a community of different bacteria in the human body that produce B12. Two species that possess all the genes for B12 synthesis are Propionibacterium freudenreichii (A genetically-engineered strain of this bacteria is used to make B12 commercially) and Lactobacillus reuteri (naturally found in most human intestine)"

    From:
    https://www.quora.com/Exactly-what-...tat-and-climatic-conditions-does-it-thrive-in

    I have a huge need for B12 due to genetics and chronic chlamydia pneumoniae.

    IV MB12 and HB12 has brought me from a fatigued stupor to functional in 15 minutes. Intsmuscular injections are more subtle, but I feel an effect within 30 minutes. The advantage of both is not having to go through the intestines.

    I looked at the transdermal oils but found the dosage and price wouldn't work for me.

    And I take oral AB12 and MB12 daily.

    It must be customized to your need, your genetics, your cofactors, and your level of toxicity. In general I see a lot if people forgetting they also need adequate B6 and B2 to make the process work properly, as well as the other cofactors.

    Too much of one fat leads to imbalances. Your cell and mitochondrial membranes need a variety of lipids to work well. I think of it as a palette of different fats, and include flax seed oil, walnut oil, sesame oil, C8 oil, coconut oil, fatty wild fish, and saturated fats from organically raised animals.
    Tinnitus can also be from inadequate methylation, so good you're working on it.
    You're welcome. Best of luck!
     
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  16. vaer

    vaer

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    from a clinical perspective you don't look at all (well nearly all) individual OAT markers separately but look at the trends.

    although D-Arbanitol is one you can isolate to give a strong a indication of a fungi problem (we have literature to support this) but as for many of the other markers no such literature.

    just to be clear you cannot diagnose SIBO with an OAT test. it shows no proximal location as per it's a urine test. the problem could well be in the large intestine instead of the small. who knows.


    So now use your OAT to do narrow your testing / treatment further. OAT indicates SIBO?-> get a sibo breath test done
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  17. vaer

    vaer

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    i don't think that makes a difference. Blowing into machine gives you the instant gas value. While blowing into the tube allows for connivence of storage/portability and so will be exported into the machine evenutally.

    The test is pretty much all the same. apart from the length of time (2hr or 3hr) , Substrate used & amount (lactulose or glucose).

    Ideally you want to go for a 3 hour test using lactulose as the sugary drink , measuring both hydrogen and methane.


    some top gastros met up recently and formed an agreeable consensus on breath testing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28323273
     
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  18. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    Thanks @caledonia. The raw data revealed I'm CC so looks like my genes 'learnt' from my mums problems and gave me a good SNP..

    I am nonetheless pumping in Lecithin along with my Betaine HCL / Gentian Bitters mix (excellent product from NOW) to ensure SIBO eradication.

    BTW I've been doing Coffee Enema's for the first time in almost 6 months as a means to further assist this purgative process (along with the Siebecker herbal antibiotic regime) and just today started taking NAC (popped 2 x 600mg tablets this morning) and took them with my herbal antibiotics. Apparently they're very useful for killing certain fungi associated with SIBO per here: http://www.davidwheldon.co.uk/NAC.html which I'm almost certainly high in noting the high arabinose (yeast toxicity), and 4-hydroxyphenylacetic (clostridia bacterial marker) revealed by last years OAT results.

    My concern is that of taking NAC whilst doing coffee enemas AND taking ALA as part of my methylation supps, taking into account this old thread which caught the interest of the late richvank: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/n-acetyl-cysteine.11967/

    My concern (and tell me if its valid) is that the coffee enemas will displace toxic metals from my liver into the body which the NAC and ALA may then facilitate to cross the BBB which is absolutely the last think I'd want as we all know both the effects, and hard hard it is to chelate heavy metals from the brain once in there... So please, let me know your thoughts. I'm sitting here hoping to make use of my last day at home by doing a coffee enema, but would happily avoid it if it runs the aforementioned risk..

    If the above risk is real then how long would it be advisable to wait before doing another Coffee Enema. I presume theres no risk in taking the methylation supps (including ALA) so long as I'm not displacing the metals with the coffee enema. Again if this too is not without risk I'd appreciate your input.

    Similarly, how long should one wait between taking NAC and ALA to ensure limited risk of having toxic metals go the wrong way at the BBB interface..


    Regards

    Journeyman
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  19. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior Member

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    Hey vaer. I've just been revisiting my OAT results and my Arabinose is sky high and I can see I handwrote on the sheet 'yeast toxicity' so how about using NAC to fight the fungi indicated by the high arabinose levels. I'm assuming D-arbanitol is an alternative name or measure of the same marker (arabinose) at a different stage of its conversion pathway...

    You make a good suggestion about the SIBO breath test, and this is what @Learner1 is probably describing having undergone when he speaks of 'breathed into 1 tube and then 2 tubes) They would have been testing for Hydrogen and Methane to identify SIBO and then which type (where high methane indicates the constipation type) aka IBS-C.

    Either way glad to have you onboard the thread!

    Regards

    Journeyman
     
  20. Learner1

    Learner1 Professional Patient

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    It was several tubes...;)

    I got rid of candida with a rotation of Diflucan/Nystatin and an anti-candida diet... Much as I like NAC, not sure it'd do much for candida.
     

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