SIBO, low stomach acid

[PeterPositive]

@Peter pos. Breaking mine HCL - in half (with fingers) was possible. I have now difficulty to swallow without food. So mixing it in some food. Thats what I accept well. So – after 6 mounth. What is your regime to take HCL. What worked well for you. Are there NEW experiences - out there?

I have experimented a bit with Betaine and Pancreatin but they didn't help that much.
Pancreatin doesn't improve my digestion at all, while Betaine gives me heartburn and bloating... yay (even at small doses, e.g. 250mg)

At the moment I use more "home made" solutions such as using lemon juice and apple cider vinegar. They both improve the stomach function without side effects.

cheers

 

[bertiedog]

Pam, I reacted badly to betaine and in my research realised it is a methyl donor; I am very sensitive to supplements that are methyl donors, and wondering if that could be causing your response?

Good luck!

Mels

Yes thanks Mels it reminded me to check my genetics and yes indeed I have the SNPs that mean I might have a hard time with too many methyl groups. This becomes very obvious to me when I drink tea with caffeine and will become anxious and feel bad However when I am not taking so much betaine hcl I don't have problems with caffeine in general.

Pam

 

[Lolinda]

I take them after meals and vary dosage with what and how much I ate. I go by nausea or burning sensation. Nausea is too little pill, burning was too much. I can now predict needed dosage pretty much and it works wonders for my digestion and nutrient uptake. Stool colour indicates good dosage too, dark = bile which is dependent upon stomach acidity.

Hi @WoolPippi I found your comment on this old thread enlightning: Why do you get nausea if you take too little betaine hcl? I have this, rarely, too. I have a lack of stomach acid, and I want to find out the cause. That is why I am so interested.

Now, a typical cause of nausea is: histamine. Thats why people take antihistamines for sea sickness. Then, here is the diagramm posted by @heyitisjustin

Looking at this diagramm, this nausea in us could mean: The body pushes more histamine, trying to get out some action of that parietal cell. And some of this histamine will spill over from the stomach to the circulation. If so, histamine could be measured there.

Now, does this make sense? Is pre-/postprandial histamine in blood a test if issues lay within the parietal cell ? This paper says that after a meal, histamine does normally not increase (in dogs, but I assume this to be the same in man). ➞ If there is an increase in histamine, it is pathological. Now, assume we measure such an increase. Do we know the histamine comes from gastric acid secretion (or failed attempt thereof) in the stomach? Now, if so, it should follow the course of gastric acid and gastrin secretion, that is, peak at the end of the meal and return to baseline later. So the measurement would be:

1. Test histamine in blood fasting
2. Test histamine in blood at the end of the meal (if there is an increase, it is pathological)
3. Test histamine in blood some time after (to make sure all this follows the curve of stomach acid and gastrin)

Now, test 2 and 3 have been executed in this study. It is the only such study I have found. It seems to confirm the idea of histamine in blood going up and then down. In teenagers with constipation they found that histamine goes down 30 min after a meal and stays there:

So, why could this confirm (or is at least not opposed to) the idea of histamine going up and down in an attempt to produce stomach acid?

• I consider it unlikely that 30 min after a meal, some histamine-eating enzyme would be produced in increased quantities (not impossible though, so test for DAO). The more likely explanation is, that there is indeed a postprandial increase in blood histamine, peaking at the end of the meal. In these patients, this is 45% higher than baseline, and it returns to baseline 30 minutes after the end of the meal. (Unfortunately all data comes from patients, there is no healthy control group)
• These patients have constipation, which fits well with dysbiosis (motility is the body's best defense against dysbiosis. And bacteria secrete substances to inhibit peristalsis, thus improve their survival in the host). Now, low stomach acid means lack of desinfection of incoming food, that is, dysbiosis.

➞ Conclusion: There is a chance that the above three tests would be instrumental to diagnose if there is excessive histamine production caused by the body's attempt to get out gastric acid of the parietal cell. An increase greater zero would indicate pathology. If this test for pre-/postprandial increase in stomach acid production shows zero (as it does in me), but histamine goes up at the end of the meal, then more likely than not, the culprit for lack of meal-induced increase of stomach acid production is in the parietal cell. (I will, however, add a DAO test − the enzyme for degrading histamine).


If anyone finds an adult study on postprandial histamine including a healthy population, that would be great. I have invested hours to try to find something... Though, there was an old Italian study on postprandial histamine, but I cannot just run to an Italian library right now Any Italian here? ).

(To exclude other causes of lack of stomach acid: here is the gastrin test and the gastroscopy I had so far.)

I am determined not to spend the rest of my life on betaine hcl. Tried everything under the sun to improve, had some success here and there for a while, but in sum, I failed. Now searching for causes, which no doctor was able to do for me...

 

[WoolPippi]

Hi @WoolPippi I found your comment on this old thread enlightning: Why do you get nausea if you take too little betaine hcl? I have this, rarely, too. I have a lack of stomach acid, and I want to find out the cause. That is why I am so interested.

Now, a typical cause of nausea is: histamine. Thats why people take antihistamines for sea sickness. Then, here is the diagramm posted by @heyitisjustin
View attachment 18625
Looking at this diagramm, this nausea in us could mean: The body pushes more histamine, trying to get out some action of that parietal cell. And some of this histamine will spill over from the stomach to the circulation. If so, histamine could be measured there.

Now, does this make sense? Is pre-/postprandial histamine in blood a test if issues lay within the parietal cell ? This paper says that after a meal, histamine does normally not increase (in dogs, but I assume this to be the same in man). ➞ If there is an increase in histamine, it is pathological. Now, assume we measure such an increase. Do we know the histamine comes from gastric acid secretion (or failed attempt thereof) in the stomach? Now, if so, it should follow the course of gastric acid and gastrin secretion, that is, peak at the end of the meal and return to baseline later. So the measurement would be:

1. Test histamine in blood fasting
2. Test histamine in blood at the end of the meal (if there is an increase, it is pathological)
3. Test histamine in blood some time after (to make sure all this follows the curve of stomach acid and gastrin)

Now, test 2 and 3 have been executed in this study. It is the only such study I have found. It seems to confirm the idea of histamine in blood going up and then down. In teenagers with constipation they found that histamine goes down 30 min after a meal and stays there:
View attachment 18626
So, why could this confirm (or is at least not opposed to) the idea of histamine going up and down in an attempt to produce stomach acid?

• I consider it unlikely that 30 min after a meal, some histamine-eating enzyme would be produced in increased quantities (not impossible though, so test for DAO). The more likely explanation is, that there is indeed a postprandial increase in blood histamine, peaking at the end of the meal. In these patients, this is 45% higher than baseline, and it returns to baseline 30 minutes after the end of the meal. (Unfortunately all data comes from patients, there is no healthy control group)
• These patients have constipation, which fits well with dysbiosis (motility is the body's best defense against dysbiosis. And bacteria secrete substances to inhibit peristalsis, thus improve their survival in the host). Now, low stomach acid means lack of desinfection of incoming food, that is, dysbiosis.

➞ Conclusion: There is a chance that the above three tests would be instrumental to diagnose if there is excessive histamine production caused by the body's attempt to get out gastric acid of the parietal cell. An increase greater zero would indicate pathology. If this test for pre-/postprandial increase in stomach acid production shows zero (as it does in me), but histamine goes up at the end of the meal, then more likely than not, the culprit for lack of meal-induced increase of stomach acid production is in the parietal cell. (I will, however, add a DAO test − the enzyme for degrading histamine).


If anyone finds an adult study on postprandial histamine including a healthy population, that would be great. I have invested hours to try to find something... Though, there was an old Italian study on postprandial histamine, but I cannot just run to an Italian library right now Any Italian here? ).

(To exclude other causes of lack of stomach acid: here is the gastrin test and the gastroscopy I had so far.)

I am determined not to spend the rest of my life on betaine hcl. Tried everything under the sun to improve, had some success here and there for a while, but in sum, I failed. Now searching for causes, which no doctor was able to do for me...

I think my low stomach acid is because of low cortisol. My adrenals are fatigued and cortisol does determine stomach acidity. I know nothing of histamine, unfortunately.

I only get nauseous at the end of the day, when cortisol is naturally low. And less so now that I supplement sufficient hydrocortison: 40 mg per day. I go by symptoms, not by the faulty research every doc echoos ("20 mg will shut down your adrenals")(addisonssupport.com will explain why this is faulty)

I understand you want to find the cause. Your search is impressive! Best of luck. As an aside: Why don't you want Betaine HCL for the rest of your life? I like to learn a new train of thought.

Instead of Betaine HCL I also have succes with lemon juice or diluted vinegar.

 

[Lolinda]

know nothing of histamine, unfortunately.

then just look at the diagramm above: there is quite a lot the body does in order to produce stomach acid. but histamine is the last and main trigger of stomach acid. it is that important.
this is why I want to measure it before and after meal. If it goes up at the end of the meal then this means that all the mechanism to produce stomach acid is functioning well, except the parietal cell. Then I need to focus on this. There is tons of information, also here on PR, how to help the parietal cell produce more acid. Will dive into that. But then at least I do not have to care about the rest before.

Why don't you want Betaine HCL for the rest of your life? I like to learn a new train of thought.

Just because I do not want to live on medicine but get healthy. Though, there is also a second point: if you supplement for too long, then it could happen that the stomach becomes even less able to produce stomach acid because the mechanism to produce stomac acid may degenerate. I did not find yet a publication on this, but can you think of any part of the body that does not get more sluggish when not used for years?

Instead of Betaine HCL I also have succes with lemon juice or diluted vinegar.

if this works for you, thats great news. because this way you keep all the machinery depicted in the diagramm above in usage.