Sherpa's Methylation Journal

[Sherpa]

Following a combo of @ahmo ('take 1mg of mB12 to relieve methylfolate side effects') and Dr. Lynch's ('spread out the methylfolate in split doses 2x or 3x a day to reduce side effects') advice... the side effects are calming down and the positive effects are increasing.

I reduced the dose of Doctor's Best Multivitamin & Multimineral to 2 capsules - 1 with breakfast, 1 with lunch = 267 mcg methylfolate.

I drink about 4oz of coconut water 2x a day for K & minerals. Full servings seem to cause mild malaise.

I took an entire Enzymatic mB12 (1000mcg) lozenge for the past 2 days and WOW! That stuff is amazing. I feel more solid & confident, more spring in my step, less tenuous.

Yesterday I had sufficient energy to do housework nicely, not just 'the bare minimum not to live in squalor' I have been practicing.

Using energy wisely
Last night I had enough energy that i wanted to go to a local bar to see live music (!!!) which would typically be the last thing on my mind come Thursday. I tried to practice new habits for going out: I went early and left early (8 to 9 p.m.), well before I felt fatigue. I drank a club soda, sat at the bar and nodded my head to the music. I resisted my old compulsion to dance around, as I did in my pre-CFS life. And I put no pressure on myself to impress anyone, meet women, etc. I was just there 'anonymously' to chill and hear music, nothing more, no other agenda.

Today I left out my morning d-ribose dose to see if the boost from 1mg mB12 will get me through until my afternoon dose.

I look at adding one successful, energizing nutrient (mB12) as a window of opportunity to reduce dependence on another and avoid possible overstimulation. Less is more.

 

[ahmo]

Last night I had enough energy that i wanted to go to a local bar to see live music (!!!)

 

[Alea Ishikawa]

Sherpa, if you are attempting methylation, then be careful about the "honeymoon period" that Freddd warned about. You may have one or two weeks of bliss, then experience negative effects after the methylation cycle really kicks in.

Please also be careful with NAC if you have amalgam (silver fillings). There is concern it can pull the mercury out of the tooth, into the bloodstream, and into the brain.

 

[Gondwanaland]

• Hoarse voice - a symptom also described by @Victronix .
• Increased muscle tension / inflammation (?) - which has been blissfully minimal the past few months
• More irritable, talkative - a.k.a. "excitotoxicity"
• Insomnia

Friday night I had all-over muscle tension that made me wanna take a muscle relaxant for the first time in ages.

The magnesium content in your multimineral is way too low. Magnesium is the best muscle relaxant (depending on how you tolerate what it is bound to). The B vits and the vit D in your multimineral increase your need for Mg even more.

Reading this site has been making much sense to me.
EDITED TO REMOVE THE GEORGE EBY LINK BECAUSE I THINK IT IS TRYING TO INSTALL A MALICIOUS ADD-ON ON MY BROWSER

izzy

 

[Helen]

@Sherpa Thanks for sharing. Good to hear that your are feeling better.

I, like you, have unexplained increased muscle tension. For me it is general, and starts around lunch and goes away after about 5 hours. Supplementing potassium doesn´t help and I am on magnesium for years. It would be interesting to know if you have any ideas of its origin for you.

Or maybe someone else has an idea?

@Critterina Is the use of GABA just to ease symptoms or is it all about a lack of GABA in your case?

 

[Sherpa]

@Gondwanaland - I'm taking 400mg of a magnesium blend. Took 800mg for a couple years before. I know Dr. Myhill recommends either magnesium injections or transdermal sprays.

I'm on:

• 2 caps Doctors Best Multiple (267mcg methylfolate)
• 1000mcg Enzymatic B12
• 1200mg sunflower lecithin
• 2.5g of d-ribose - 2x per day (titrating down due to more energy from methylation supplements)
• non-prescription thyroid glandular (titrating down due to more energy "" + improved diet)
• 2g Vitamin C with added calcium
• 400mg magnesium - mixed salts
• fish oil
• inositol - (as needed to control OCD).
• 4oz coconut water per day (for potassium)

When I took the full 3 caps of Doctor's Best Multiple I got enhanced dream activity - perhaps from the higher dose of B6 + P-5-P. But also a bit of edge & tension, maybe from the methylfolate and high dose of B's, biotin, etc.

I'm looking at adding sublingual b6 (P-5-P) and wondering if it will help with mood, energy and OCD.

I'm also curious about l-methinone, which is recommended both by holistic docs for OCD and on Phoenix Rising as a methylation cofactors. I got the impression it was usually added after the whole Deadlock Quartet was in place.

Also considering adding more methyfolate - like @Johnmac had success adding pretty quickly - but want to wait until my 23andMe results come back before getting too aggressive.

Status Update: Feeling some improvement in mood and energy - for which I'm grateful but as I try to do more with my increased energy, I still experience PEM / delayed fatigue. Still have a ways to go.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Yes, those ups and downs make it all harder to understand what's going on...

In that link the author says that for most people the lowest effective dose of magnesium is 600mg/day. And it was spot on for me. I can only feel long lasting benefits if I take it at that dose or higher. Also perhaps doing some experiments with different forms to find out which one yields the best benefits for you. I believe it is worthwhile chasing it just like Freddd chased the best mB12 brands... To me finding the right type and the right dose was just as life-changing as taking mB12!

izzy

 

[Critterina]

@
@[USER=11590]Critterina Is the use of GABA just to ease symptoms or is it all about a lack of GABA in your case?[/USER]

Helen,

I didn't have my GABA tested, but I did have my amino acids (serum) tested. I also have hypothyroid, which a doctor said causes chronic muscle tension in the neck and shoulders.

My amino acid tests included glutamic acid and glutamine, and the ratio is supposed to be between 0.05 and 0.35 glutamic acid/glutamine. The individual results were within the lab's reference range (except the first glutamine reading was high), but the ratios were off. My ratio results were very low: 0.062, 0.042, and 0.069. I'm in the bottom 6% of the range when I'm not below it. (Actually, that last reading may have been after I started taking GABA, I'd have to check.)

From chemistry I remember the difference between a "-ic acid" and and "-ate" is acid versus acid salt, almost nothing when you're talking about something in solution. (Salicylic acid and salicylate" - you find either one on an aspirin bottle). And if you look at the "Glutamate – GABA Imbalance Þ Excitotoxicity" diagram on the heartfixer website, you see the relation between glutamate and GABA.

So, yes I take it for my symptoms, but it also made sense in terms of my lab chemistry. Before I would think about lowering my shoulders, but couldn't always do it. Now, I can make them go down (relax) by thinking about it.

 

[Sherpa]

In that link the author says that for most people the lowest effective dose of magnesium is 600mg/day. And it was spot on for me. I can only feel long lasting benefits if I take it at that dose or higher. To me finding the right type and the right dose was just as life-changing as taking mB12!

I made it home from work yesterday, did my cooking for the next 3 days and halfway through I could feel the exhaustion setting in: Brain fog. Depression. Diffuse muscle pain. I resigned myself to yet another evening of lying in bed and feeling sorry for myself.

Then I remembered what you said, @Gondwanaland , about a minimum of 600mg Mg dose being effective, so I took another cap - bringing it up to 800mg. Within 45 minutes I was surprised to be feeling interested in life & reduced fog.

This morning I took 800mg magnesium right after my Enzymatic B12 Infusion and I feel an unmistakable lift. Kinda similar to the "amazing" initial effect of mB12! I'm looking into alternate Mg forms - baths, transdermal sprays - and will experiment to get it right.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this critical diagnostic advice. I can't tell you how deeply appreciate it is.

 

[Gondwanaland]

YAY

Perhaps you have already found the right form for you

 

[Gondwanaland]

I must correct myself here b/c that link wasn't malicious after all. Apparently it was my anti-virus software trying to coax me to upgrade by showing me how its warnings are efficient...

So I do recommend that site which has invaluable information:
george-eby-research dot com/html/depression-anxiety.html
Details on lenght of treatment and dosage:
george-eby-research dot com/html/liebscher-magnesium-deficiency.pdf
Magnesium for depression:
george-eby-research dot com/html/magnesium-for-depression.pdf
izzy

 

[Critterina]

Hooray for you! I've been on 400 mg Mg for 1.5 years and wondering whether I should trial an increase. I think I will!

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa @Critterina please read also about magnesium toxicity:
george-eby-research dot com/html/depression-anxiety.html#warn
george-eby-research dot com/html/depression-anxiety.html#toxicology
In July I finally found out I could tolerate MgO and took 200mg at bedtime for a month with little but encouraging improvements. In August I read somewhere here at PR that Mg supplementation would be effective if taken at 600mg, so I have been taking it at this dosage for about 1.5 months. Then this week I found the George Eby site and have been learning a lot from it. Today for the 1st time I had loose stools, so I am going to slow down with the MgO and perhaps even try other forms now that many intolerances are gone (salicylates, nitrates) and ammonia reduced. When I had high ammonia the veins in my hands, forearms, feet and calves were popping out, really scary.

izzy

 

[Gondwanaland]

This is something new for me:

ATP (adenosine triphosphate), the main source of energy in cells, must be bound to a magnesium ion in order to be biologically active. What is called ATP is often actually Mg-ATP.[4] As such, magnesium plays a role in the stability of all polyphosphate compounds in the cells, including those associated with the synthesis of DNA and RNA.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_in_biology

Perhaps my Mg deficiency was the cause of my fatigue while taking mB12...

I took an entire Enzymatic mB12 (1000mcg) lozenge for the past 2 days and WOW! That stuff is amazing. I feel more solid & confident, more spring in my step, less tenuous.

Yesterday I had sufficient energy to do housework nicely, not just 'the bare minimum not to live in squalor' I have been practicing.

I want this energy back!!! I had it in the 1st weekend after I started taking mB12 back in late January...

izzy

 

[Critterina]

@Sherpa @Critterina please read also about magnesium toxicity:
george-eby-research dot com/html/depression-anxiety.html#warn
george-eby-research dot com/html/depression-anxiety.html#toxicology

In July I finally found out I could tolerate MgO and took 200mg at bedtime for a month with little but encouraging improvements. In August I read somewhere here at PR that Mg supplementation would be effective if taken at 600mg, so I have been taking it at this dosage for about 1.5 months. Then this week I found the George Eby site and have been learning a lot from it. Today for the 1st time I had loose stools, so I am going to slow down with the MgO and perhaps even try other forms now that many intolerances are gone (salicylates, nitrates) and ammonia reduced. When I had high ammonia the veins in my hands, forearms, feet and calves were popping out, really scary.

izzy

izzy,

I'm not authorized to view those links. What is it you'd like me to know? I was only going to try 600 mg.

MgO causes diarrhea for many people because it never gets out of the gut. I stick with Mg glycinate, which was recommended by my healthcare provider. Of course, other things cause loose stools, too, like bacteria on your fruits and vegetables, mild viral infection, etc. It's a little strange it would take six weeks to have that effect.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Critterina , essentially this:

Although it is absolutely certain that magnesium deficiency causes most cases of depression, treating depression with oral magnesium must be done cautiously, perhaps with no more than 800 mg daily of magnesium, specifically as magnesium glycinate. The most important discussion, more or less hidden in this report, concerns toxicity of too much magnesium when taken with inadequate calcium. When too much magnesium with inadequate calcium is taken orally, intestinal infections with Candida albicans (thrush) can occur and the result is worsening depression since the oral magnesium cannot be absorbed in the presence of this intestinal infection.

MgO causes diarrhea for many people because it never gets out of the gut. I stick with Mg glycinate, which was recommended by my healthcare provider. Of course, other things cause loose stools, too, like bacteria on your fruits and vegetables, mild viral infection, etc. It's a little strange it would take six weeks to have that effect.

Well, I never ever get diarrhea. So my theory is that I am replenishing my magnesium stores and the excess is now causing me loose stools.

izzy

 

[Critterina]

@Gondwanaland ,

Thanks. That' is the info I was looking for in the links. I'm using the glycinate form and I don't intend to go over 800 mg. Interesting that it can cause candida overgrowth when there's not a problem to begin with. Good to know.

I remember reading that little Mg from MgO is absorbed, so I looked at this: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-HealthProfessional/
I usually go with the NIH over other sources, although they are sometimes more conservative than I think is necessary. It says

Absorption of magnesium from different kinds of magnesium supplements varies. Forms of magnesium that dissolve well in liquid are more completely absorbed in the gut than less soluble forms [2,11]. Small studies have found that magnesium in the aspartate, citrate, lactate, and chloride forms is absorbed more completely and is more bioavailable than magnesium oxide and magnesium sulfate [11-15].
and
Forms of magnesium most commonly reported to cause diarrhea include magnesium carbonate, chloride, gluconate, and oxide [11]

but doesn't quantify. A test would be to put a MgO tablet in liquid to see what happens.

If you continue to take the same dose and your stool firm, or if you quit the dose and the loose stools continue, it will be time to revisit your hypothesis. Time will tell.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Critterina from the same George Eby site:

Throughout the entirety of this essay, except for this single section, I indicate that magnesium oxide is garbage, useless and not bioavailable. On the other hand, maybe for some special people, magnesium oxide could be just what the doctor ordered. Here are the facts. Some people can't absorb ionizable magnesium compounds since they have intestinal problems, such as candida albicans infection and other problems perhaps of a medical nature, and they develop diarrhea with relatively small doses of ionizable magnesium like magnesium chloride, citrate, lactate, glycinate and so on. I believe they can't absorb ionizable magnesium since ionizable magnesium first feeds candida albicans fungus or other infective agent in the guts, thus worsening intestinal health and diminishing absorption. I don't know if this condition is rare or common, but suspect it is rare in well people but more common in sick people such as depressives. Perhaps leaky gut syndrome is present. There are fascinating tidbits of information that suggests magnesium oxide will not be absorbed by candida albicans (my intuition only - no facts here), yet the human gut absorbs it. However, the amount of magnesium oxide needed to effect a benefit in treating depression may be as high as 2,000 to 4,000 milligrams a day (split the doses please)! Whoa! That much magnesium citrate or other ionizable compounds might cause serious health problems (or death?), so it greatly worries me that people may not remember that these huge doses are very tentatively described ONLY for magnesium oxide and such doses may or may not cause severe side effects. Benefits? Maybe! Why am I taking this position now? Last year I worked on magnesium throat lozenges for asthma, see the article here. Although I did not expect magnesium oxide to work, it did, but much larger doses were required compared to ionizable forms. Therefore, I had some personal evidence that magnesium oxide could be absorbed and could be useful in treating human diseases. Was it very convincing? NO! There are other tidbits of information too. In this 1986 unpublished article by Vinson, he shows that magnesium oxide produced urinary levels of magnesium in excess of that produced by magnesium glycinate. That means that for those several people in the Vinson study, magnesium oxide was absorbed better than magnesium glycinate. Look at this 2006 article in Gut, a journal associated with the British Medical Journal, it shows with clear laboratory evidence that a woman having had part of her intestinal tract removed from a previous surgery, absorbed magnesium oxide but not other forms of magnesium. ......

it still goes on for a little longer on it.

Well, I am not aware of having any of the problems he mentioned (I don't think I have candida overgrowth).

The benefits I felt were:

• relieve from salicylate and nitrate intolerance
• tooth remineralization
• 80% improvement in sleep (reached 100% after taking Saccharomyces boulardii)
• calf cramps gone
• breathlessness gone
• lump in the throat gone
• congestion (liver?) gone
• chest thightness/lung and heart pain gone
• high volume, frequent urination 80% gone (reached 100% after takingSaccharomyces boulardii)
• pessimistic thoughts gone
• improved memory and cognition
• gained vit C tolerance
• odorless sweat is a plus!
• at first it did nothing for my chronic constipation.

The fact that S. boulardii did so much for me means that I had a high histamine component in my symptoms.

Well, now is time to reduce my daily dose to test my theory.

In alternate days I am taking S. boulardii alone and L. rhamnosus + B. bifidum + L. reuterii. None of those are supposed to cause loose stools, so I blame the magnesium...

izzy

P.S. 1) Now I can also tolerate vitamin C and am almost ready to restart methylation
P.S. 2) @Sherpa sorry for hijacking your journal

 

[Sherpa]

Thanks for the detailed information about magnesium @Gondwanaland ! You saved me. My big question is: If I'm taking 800 mg mixed magnesium with good effects: Do I need to be taking a calcium supplement? (I'll have to experiment and find out!)

I upped my dose of methylfolate to 400mcg on Friday and got another significant Power Up I could feel an increase in energy and I could feel something that I could only describe as "methylation" - the increase in mood, gentle buzz and euphoria was extremely similar to the feeling I got when i tried SAMe years back. I felt as if energy and biochemical processes that had been long blocked or switched off were gently being switched back on. I felt animated, sparkly, optimistic I could feel the heavy shackles of CFS getting loosened up. I felt alive again. Like a battery that was charging up.

Unfortunately the particularly heavy stressors of the week - a hair-raising Pit Bull encounter, running into my ex-gf, extended work hours - all took toll on me, and delayed fatigue set in Friday about 6p.m. and ruined my weekend . I also think I tried to taper off d-ribose too fast once I got energy from B12 & Mg.

Sunday morning I skipped the mB12 and I took 1/2 tablet of Annabol Naturals Dibencoplex for a once-a-week change suggested by Freddd. It had the effect of brightening colors, giving visual objects higher definition and contrast, and more energy. Maybe the dawn of some kind of neurological healing. At this dose the effect of the adB12 was not distinct from mB12.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I hope to follow your steps!