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shaking while asleep - please help!

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by boo85, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    I knew of someone who got shaking, she described it as internal tremors, when she started on B-12. I'll see if I can look that up. She's been on here also. . . . Okay, here is a post of her's on a question about tremors with B-12: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nce-tremors-on-b12-startup.21383/#post-326486

  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Have you tolerated your hydroxocobalamin injections in the past? If so, then I question whether the quality of your previous hydroxocobalamin injections were degraded somehow which is why you didn't have that reaction in the past. Or maybe it got switched with methylcobalamin somehow? I'm sure there are other possibilities, but I recommend not getting any injections for now since you won't know how to guage your reaction to them. It might be good to not take any B12 until your symptoms reside, but after that I'd recommend taking only very low oral (not sublingual) doses. caledonia can give you instructions on how to take B12 in very low doses. I agree with the others about potassium. It's definitely a good idea to rule that out, but there are other reasons why a person can react badly to methylation. You also might want to increase your magnesium intake as hypokalemia (low potassium) is often associated with magnesium deficiency.
    http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/18/10/2649.full
  3. boo85

    boo85

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    I just remembered that before the shaking, at night I would get tic-like movements in my legs, like my legs would kick a bit on their own. Also I'd get generally lots of muscle twitching in the past 2 weeks. Unfortunately I don't think I can stick with B12 because it is causing too many side effects.

    Victronix I just took 3/4 of a teaspoon of potassium and I feel a bit better. How much potassium salt would I need to take before overdosing? I'm scared about having too much. Is there anyway to test potassium in the blood at home? I have had it tested at the drs when I've felt sick, but it just comes back as normal.

    Lotus97 - I don't think I can tolerate injections as much as I previously thought. I think it still affects me the same way as tablets. How much magnesium should I take per day?
  4. WillowJ

    WillowJ Senior Member

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  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    A good dose of magnesium would be anywhere from 400 up to 1000 mg. It would be good to take at least that much in calcium as well to balance that out. If you eat dairy then you wouldn't need as much calcium. Also, some vitamin D and vitamin K (preferably K2). Twinlabs sells a vitamin D/K2 "dots".

    I'm not sure, but it might be better to divide up your potassium throughout the day. I think you'll absorb it better. Maybe take some every hour or so.

    Rich said something about people being low in intracellular potassium so I'm not sure if the serum potassium is accurate or not.

    I tagged Caledonia. She said she started B12 with 1 mcg so maybe she can help you figure out how to take a very low dose until you can tolerate more.
  6. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    HydroxyB12 should be much safer than methylB12. It won't drain potassium or cause the other problems associated with excess methylB12.

    Magnesium can help with muscle twitching.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi Boo. Here's what I would suggest - stop all B12 supplementation, including injections. If you would like to slow down methylation further to stop symptoms, take 50mg of the nicotinic acid form of niacin.

    The muscle twitching can be magnesium deficiency. I've had the exact same symptom of feeling like I've been shaken awake. What is happening is your legs are twitching while you're sleeping. If you get an especially big kick, it will shake the bed and shake you, and wake you up. Of course, you're asleep while all of this is going on, so you're only aware of the last little bit happening. I had to take a sleep study to figure out what was going on. Once I increased magnesium, the problem went away.

    So it sounds like you may have both potassium and magnesium deficiency. So I would get the methylation stopped, then establish a base level of magnesium, potassium, and whatever electrolytes you need.

    It's very common for those who have ME/CFS to have weak adrenals. The adrenals control the balance of electrolytes. If you have weak adrenals, you'll be leaking out electrolytes like crazy, and those will need to be replaced several times throughout the day. Once you crank up methylation your need for these will increase dramatically as your body starts using the electrolytes for cell rebuilding. This will cause a shortage in other areas, resulting in the kinds of side effects you're having. So it's essential to get a handle on this.

    I personally do a homemade electrolyte drink with powders mixed in water. I feel like this absorbs better than other methods. My personal drink mix has magnesium glycinate powder, vitamin C (BioEnergyC), and salt. My normal amount of magnesium (even before doing methylation) was around 1500mg a day. Now that I'm doing methylation, it's more like 2000mg a day. These are high amounts.

    I suggest getting your minerals tested to see what you're low in as a starting place. And also learning self muscle testing. This is how I keep close tabs on what is good for me to take and in what amounts. As you do methylation, all kinds of changes will be happening, some of them rapidly. Medications may need to be reduced or eliminated, old supplements dropped, new ones added, amounts increased or decreased.


    Here's a link to get started. Don't worry about the mystic/new agey sound of it. There is a scientific basis. Once you know the general procedure, it's just a matter of asking the right "yes or no" questions to determine what your body needs.

    Next post - How to reduce B12 to tiny amounts.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Here's how I reduce my B12 to tiny amounts. I'm using Douglas Labs Methylcobalamin Liquid. Each dropperful is 1000mcg. You need to dilute it down with water.

    Go to Amazon and buy an eyedropper bottle (or a couple in case you need to dilute other things such as adenosylcobalamin). Get the kind with brown glass to block light. This will keep the B12 solution from degrading.

    Suck up a dropperful of methylcobalamin up to the 1ml mark on the dropper. Drop it slowly back into it's bottle and count the # of drops contained in one dropperful. My bottle has 18.

    So 1000mcg divided by 18 drops = 55mcg per drop

    If that's not small enough to start with, this is where your brown eyedropper bottle comes in. Add one drop of methylcobalamin to the brown bottle. Now take the glass eyedropper that comes with it and add 55 drops of water (technically it's 54, but 55 is close enough and easier to remember). Now each drop will be 1 mcg.

    Write down your formula so you don't forget it, as you'll need to keep replenishing it. I put a piece of tape on the bottle and write it on there.

    I take the B12 four times a day along with my electrolytes. In general, spacing out supplements like that helps them absorb better, and you get a constant feed into your body.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  9. caledonia

    caledonia

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    One more point on the potassium/magnesium. As someone else pointed out, there is a greater need for them at nighttime. I guess there is a lot of cell activity going on then, which uses them up. I take half, or even more of my days' allotment before bedtime.

    If you wake up in the middle of the night with deficiency symptoms, you can take more. I muscle test to determine how much more that is.

    As an example, right now for magnesium glycinate powder, I'm taking 3/4 tsp, 3/4 tsp, 3/4 tsp, 6-3/4 tsp.
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't disagree with you, but Boo experienced the symptoms just from a hydroxocobalamin injection so it can still cause problems if someone is more sensitive. If I remember correctly, Boo also experienced symptoms just from 60 mcg of methylcobalamin so even a relatively low dose of hydroxocobalamin might still cause issues for someone very sensitive (although Boo hasn't tried hydroxocobalamin in other forms beside injections so we don't really know). I also heard from someone who had trouble with very small amounts of hydroxocobalamin, but had no problem taking several hundred mcgs of methylfolate. While these are of course outliers and most people are able to tolerate 1000-2000 mcg of hydroxocobalamin without any trouble it is worth mentioning.
    Valentijn likes this.
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Magnesium in higher doses can cause loose bowels with some people. Certain forms of magnesium are more likely to cause this issue. Also, taking calcium might mitigate it to a certain degree also. There is also something called "magnesium oil" that you can spray on your body and absorb it transdermally. For some people it can irritate their skin. You can make your own magnesium spray by dissolving Epsom salts into water. Someone told me that it is less likely to irritate your skin than magnesium oil (perhaps since Epsom salts is magnesium sulfate rather than magnesium chloride), but I found that it still did irritate my skin sometimes. Just not as much as the magnesium chloride spray.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Holistic Health also sells liquid hydroxocobalamin.
    http://www.holisticheal.com/hydroxy-b12-mega-drops.html
    I'm not sure, but hydroxocobalamin might also be light-sensitive so the same instructions that Caledonia mentioned earlier for storing liquid methylcobalamin might apply.
  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Yes, my magnesium needs are so high, my bowels are very, very loose (TMI, I know:eek:). But hopefully this cell rebuilding phase in only temporary, so I'm just putting up with it for now.

    Magnesium sulfate contains sulfur, which may need to be avoided for those with an expressed CBS.

    ps. does anybody know how long this phase of increased need for magnesium/potassium is supposed to last?
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I have the same issue, but I'm not sure how much is from the magnesium. Potassium can also promote regularity. With vitamin C, ascorbic acid is more likely to cause it than the buffered vitamin C mineral ascorbates like calcium, sodium, or magnesium ascorbate. I think dbkita explained why, but I don't remember.
    The magnesium oil is made from magnesium chloride so that should be find. They also sell magnesium chloride bath crystals that you can either put in your bath or make a homemade magnesium spray
    Victronix started a thread about that. It's been awhile since I read it so I'm not sure how much information is there
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...g-does-increased-potassium-demand-last.22943/
  15. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Ok, so I read the other thread. It sounds like when HPA axis signaling, and thus adrenal function is fixed, then it won't be required any more.

    Now I'm confused. I think there are two things operating here. The first one is the adrenal fatigue thing which causes electrolytes to leak out. I was already supplementing 1500mg mag for that. My magnesium needs actually dropped for awhile, as did my need for salt and vitamin C. I also got hypothyroid symptoms and have cut back on my thyroid med from 30mg to 15mg (tested TSH, talked with my doc, etc.). I take this as a sign of improvement in both adrenals and thyroid. Say about 50% improvement for each.

    The new thing is increased need for magnesium due to cell rebuilding. Now my need for mag has gone back up way past the previous level where it was just leaking due to weak adrenals. Like 2000mg.

    I think the reason some people reported that they could never reduce their need for mag/potass was that their adrenals haven't recovered from this alone.

    There should be an end to the cell rebuilding phase. I do feel like my muscles are rebuilding, whereas previously, I had muscle wasting (as shown on the Nutreval test, and just general weakness). My waist is getting smaller and my pants are getting looser, although I haven't really lost any weight. So maybe losing fat, while gaining muscle?
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Freddd and Rich both seemed to think the extra need for potassium was due to the creation of new cells, but both dbkita and Adreno were skeptical of that theory. I don't know if either of them offered any alternative theory, but if they're skeptical then so am I.
    It might have something to do with aldosterone:
    http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/aldosterone/
    I also posted that study mentioning aldosterone, magnesium, and hypokalemia in post #22 of this thread.
  17. caledonia

    caledonia

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    The aldosterone thing said it also controls sodium. My need for sodium has reduced to about 50% (or even less) of what it was, and has not increased. Only the magnesium has increased.

    So if aldersterone is getting worse due to stress from cranking up methylation, a decreased need for sodium doesn't make sense.
  18. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    I don't believe B12 in any form can "cause" hypokalemia. What I do think is happening is an association. That being the RBC's. When or if deficient in B12, the blood cells fail to divide and mature. When given B12, you finally start making RBC's, and when making RBC's, you need potassium. So the potassium you had when you weren't making RBC's, is not enough to feed the new population, and hence, hypokalemia.

    Can anyone tell me their reasons for claiming hypokalemia is directly caused by B12? Thanks!

    LaurieL
  19. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    What do you mean by aldosterone getting worse? High or low? Both articles said if aldosterone is high you need more potassium. When it's low is when you crave salt, but even if aldosterone is low it says that potassium regulates that. I'm sort of confused by the articles/study and don't have time to sort them out. I mentioned it because I thought it might have to do with thyroid. Maybe you're right that it doesn't apply to you, but I thought you said that you also need more potassium now. Or did you just mention magnesium/potassium because other people have the potassium need (whereas you only need magnesium?) If so, does that mean you're not supplementing with any potassium?
  20. caledonia

    caledonia

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    In my case, getting worse would be getting lower again. My adrenals were flatlined across the board for many years. If I don't supplement with salt in my electrolyte water, I crave it.

    No I don't need any potassium, and don't supplement with it other than the small amount in my multi (and I'm only taking 2 capsules out of 6). I don't tolerate coconut water. On my Nutreval potassium was at the high end of normal - wouldn't want it any higher.

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